Brad Rock, DEsert News Just Lost Credibility With me. How do you feel?

Football
21

I read that article (re the Boise State model not being right for BYU) and found it quite convincing. I’ve been going back and forth on this, as I can see advantages and disadvantages to both. Obviously I would rather play some of these powerhouse teams than most teams in the MWC, but I think this will make it very difficult to ever run the table, and I don’t see us getting any consideration from the big boys if we don’t. Maybe not even if we do. This year the schedule is tough enough that they would probably at least let us into the NY6 bowls, but the playoffs? Dunno. Even Baylor and TCU were left out last year and everyone knew they had the talent to beat anybody. I can even imagine them picking a 2 loss SEC team over BYU most years.

Remember how absolutely paranoid some sportscasters were that we were going to run the table last year? They made sure to voice opinions that if we did run the table, we could never get into the playoffs and the best we could hope for was one of the NY6 bowls. I’d be really surprised if they didn’t find a way to keep us out of those too.

Its just so difficult to go undefeated that if we keep hanging our hats on that eventuality we’re going to be perpetually disappointed. Bronco even made the stunningly ridiculous statement that we would have to go undefeated for two seasons in a row to have a chance at the NC! If that is true we should go back into any G5 conference that will take us. I calculate (unscientifically - but based on history) the odds of that ever happening at something like 2500 to 1, so not good at all. I’ll go out on a limb and say this probably isn’t going to happen in my lifetime. We need a better way into the playoffs than this!

If we have to get back into a non-P5 conference, I hope its the MWC because I think they have the best chance of having a playoff type team, and I miss the tradition of playing some of those schools like Hawaii, San Diego State, Air Force, Colorado State, etc. Not only that but I miss having a reason to watch the MWC play against other conferences, which has been taken away since we went independent.

22

Well we had a shot at P5 and blew it, so unless we close the deal if offered again, G5 is the only option. Indy can’t sustain itself and we are on the clock as our ESPN contract will be brutal when we have to renegotiate after the current one expires. I can pass along this with 100% certainly from the AD, we will either join a P5 conference, or go to G5 when the ESPN deal is up, Indy will no longer be an option, unless Fox or some other network over pays for our games, and according to our AD, they are not holding their breath for that.

1 Like
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I agree so I think the question of whether the MWC wants us back is relevant when considering these options. Does anyone know anything about that? My guess is that they’d make a place for BYU if we said we wanted back in, but I don’t know for sure.

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Bearlock,

I totally agree with you.

I think that it is important at this time that our AD addresses us again, either at this site, or in the Provo Herald, or the Desert News or the Salt Lake Tribune or maybe the Bleacher Report or some other site.

He needs to tell us what is, or what is not, happening since the last time he told us that Independence is not sustainable much more than a few years.

He needs to tell us that some form, is or is not going on, be it legal or be in non binding arbitration that is or is not going on with the Pac 12, or the Big 12 or other P5 conference.

He needs to tell us if the powers that be are actually considering going back to the MWC or some other Mid major G5 conference.

He needs to tell us if we are quitters, if we are losers, if we are not willing to pay our dues or put forth the effort, or if we are going to do the fight and come out on top as an Independent P5 team for programing purposes that will soon be scheduling like a P5 team of a P5 conference.

He needs to tell us if we have that grit, or if our plans are to take the easy way out. He needs to tell us now.

25

KC,

I don’t know about you, but the peer teams of yesterday have opened my eyes.

I am speaking of those peers when we were all together at one time or another in the WAC or MWC.

I am speaking of TCU that made it to the Big 12. The last time we played them was at their house and we beat them. Since that time, they bit the bullet. The were quite impressive with a couple BCS games. They were rewarded with a P5 conference.

I am talking about the Utah Utes that have been our peer and our rival for more years than I can remember.

Like TCU, the Utes got the coaching staff together to get them into impressive BCS Bowls; did fantastic; and like TCU, they were rewarded into a P5 conference.

These rewards earned by TCU and Utah Utes, had nothing to do with bias, nothing to do with Sunday play.
It did have verything to do with being coached into BCS Bowls and doing well with them.

Boise State had a fantastic Mid Major Coach that never let up. He never took family outings until the season was over. He never game (teams) time off for rest and healing. Instead, he gave individual players that needed the time off that needed time and used the back ups to continue practice giving those back ups the valuable experience they needed.

He stayed focused on football during the football season. He kept his team focused on football during the football season. They didn’t spread themselves too thin by focusing on things other than football during the season.

That coach was rewarded to the position of being a P5 coach. He is no longer a mid major coach. He earned the promotion. Boise State advanced from the ranks of the now debunked WAC into the MWC,

I do not want to run the table vs. G5 teams and FCS teams. To me, that would be disgusting now. There is no going back.

Are we saying that we are not as good as TCU? Are we saying that we are not as good as the Utah Utes? Are we saying that we are not as good as Hawaii, Houston, and Boise State.

Are we saying that we are not good enough to put forth the work and sacrifice to be as good as our old peer group that made that effort.

Final question: How much longer are we going to continue blaming “No Sunday Play; Bias; Religion; Politics as the reasons for our failures??? — Oh I almost forgot the honor code excuse.

26

KC,

Tell us about the shot that we had at a P5 conference, but blew it?

Are you taking about Big 12? Was Arrogance the tool that you thought blew it or was it something else?
Tell us.

Do we still have 6-8 years remaining with our ESPN Contract for approximately 8-10 million per year?

Do we believe that we do not deserve to have that contract renewed for at least the same amount?

Do you think that we would be better able to afford football earning only 1 to 1-1/4 $ million per year as a G5 team?

Explain the math to me.

Until such time as the AD explains to us publicly,

why going backwards, in reverse, retreating to a G5 conference
that we put down so badly, bad mouth so ruthlessly,
is a better objective than staying an Independent P5 team for programing purposes.

Until that time, when the AD explains to us why quitting is a better option than working towards the goal of progressing forward, - - - - - I will just have to believe that we would rather complain that bias, No Sunday Play, Politics, Honor Code is the reason for our failures and for our unwillingness to put forth the effort by acting like an Independent P5 team, programing like all other P5 teams that are in P5 conferences.

Maybe he thinks that we can never catch up with our former peers and our rival the TCU and Ute teams.
If we think we can’t catch up, than why try??? If we can’t win, we won’t play? What are we teaching our fans and their children?

YES, I am upset at even the suggestion that someone is even considering retreat because we are too lazy to forge ahead. It is embarrassing.

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Mike H.

It is always a pleasure to read your well written and well educated post. Thank you again for this one.

While I do see validity in all that you say, including those very few areas that I can not agree with, I selfishly,
wish to tell where my opinion differs from yours.

( Your opinion being just as valid for you and others with your point of view, as my opinion is valid for me and others that share my point of view)

I would rather give up every bowl game for the next 10 years or until such time that we are offered a home among the P5 conferences.

Playing, as a mid major, in hopes of one year, within the next ten years, or until such time that we get invited into a P5 conference of getting into a P4 play off means very little to me. I could care less. The chances of us playing for a National Championship as a G5 team, will never, ever, ever, ever, ever happen.

Short memories have not learned from the co -champions of a P5 conference, Big 12, in the post 2014 season. (TCU/Baylor/Ohio State)

Getting a New Years Day Bowl game, means nothing to me as a mid major, Big deal. We get to play a P5 team in that bowl instead of a mid major team in a nothing bowl. So what???

What does matter to me is that we continue to have the conference as an Independent P5 team for programing purposes teams like 2015 Nebraska, Boise State, UCLA, Michigan, UCON, Cinn. Missouri, and
2016 Arizona, Utah Utes, UCLA, West Va., Michigan State. Mississippi, Boise State,Conn., Southern Miss,
and 2017, LSU, Utah Utes, Boise State, Mississippi State, UMass, and 2018 Arizona, Washington, Boise State, Utah, Wisconsin, and 2019, Va., USC., WAshington, Boise State, Utah Utes, Wisconsin, and all the other years that follow with great schedules.

Is anyone really willing to give up all of these great teams in hopes of getting to play only 1 team in a P4 play off or a New Years Bowl, if we have a Miracle Season, win Boise State, Utah State, and all the other wannabee’s in the MWC and THEN hope and pray for anorher miracle in the same season by having us chosen to play in the NY Bowl?

One choice of playing P5 teams like a P5 Independent team is very, very real, while the other choice of going to a G5 conference to win that Long Shot to play 1 P5 team is really questionable for a college student or graduate to even consider. That is my opinion.

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Thanks for your post Ron. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on a lot of this. I’m afraid I do believe that BYU has handcuffed themselves with the honor code, etc. We have a coach that doesn’t seem to mind this, but I feel has unrealistic expectations of what can achieved with handcuffs on. I mentioned yesterday that he actually said to the national press that we would have to go undefeated for two years in a row to get any consideration for the playoffs! The odds of this happening are too minuscule, especially with the schedule we have this year. I like Bronco, and given the decisions BYU has made, I think he’s probably the best guy for the job. But what a dumb statement! He’s in effect handed over an excuse to the football powers that be for leaving us out of the playoffs! He must honestly believe that he can field a team that goes undefeated two years in a row, but this is on par with calling two timeouts to ‘ice’ an extra point. I just don’t believe two consecutive undefeated seasons is going to happen in my lifetime.

Given these realities, I kind of lean towards getting back into a conference and I think the three year time line they laid out is pretty reasonable. If by then we can’t get in a P5 conference, I think we have no choice to go back to the MWC if they’ll take us. Hopefully this is the worst case scenario, but if it is I don’t think its all that horrible. I think we’d struggle to even win the conference championship most years. Remember, we got beat by two MWC teams last year.

I wish we had helped keep the MWC together and somehow got Utah and TCU to stay and add Boise State and Fresno State. If that had happened the MWC would have to be recognized as a P5 conference at some point within the next year or two. They were already on track for that! Instead everyone felt it was better to take their balls and go home, and who knows how we get out of this now? Just my $0.02.

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I do agree that it would be less likely for us to run the table as an Independent than a G5, but that’s why I believe we have a better chance of getting into the playoffs. Even with everything Boise State has done, they are still looked down on by the P5 teams. If they ran the table, they’d probably go to a NY6 bowl. If we ran the table, it would depend on how the rest of the P5 teams did to determine whether or not we’d go to a NY6 bowl or the playoffs. If the Big-12 has issues like they did last year, and the Big-10 or the ACC has an ugly year for all their teams with a close win in the conference championship game, I think BYU would have a chance if they were 12-0. We were in the discussion last year with a much weaker schedule for the first four weeks. If we beat Nebraska, UCLA, and Michigan at their house with a “Neutral” win against Missouri, we’ll be in good shape. Yes, Boise State won their NY6 bowl game, but their only P5 wins would be against Washington (which would be in Boise), Virginia, and BYU (since we’re considered a P5 for scheduling purposes). I don’t believe that a G5 team would have a better chance of the playoffs than a team that is considered P5 that beat four P5 teams (all away from home) and the best the G5 has to offer. Our schedule is strong enough to put us in the conversation if we go 12-0, whereas Boise State might be mentioned, but never seriously considered.

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Bearloc,

It’s a pleasure reading your post which has many good points.

I must remind you that 2014 season, #3 TCU, having played 9 other P5 teams + 3 weak non G5 teams was dropped, yes, even after the win, to #6 in the Nation, while #5 Ohio State moved up because they had the stronger SOS. Ohio State got the nod for the P4 playoff’s.

There is no way, with only 4 P5 teams on our Cougar schedule and with a FCS Wagner team on that same schedule, that we could anyway possible get a Power 4 play off game. (Both TCU and Baylor would have a fit)

Also, it is highly unlikely that we will beat, in the same 2015 season, all four P5 teams including Nebraska, UCLA, Michigan, and Missouri.

Oh yes, if anyone of these four P5 teams were the only P5 team on our schedule and that team was played in September, we could probably beat any one of them, but not all of them collectively. At least not now in our current state of development.

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Ron,

I don’t disagree with you. My point was not that I’m expect BYU to go undefeated and be in the playoffs. Rather, my post was in response to KC where he said that Boise State would be in the playoffs if they run the table whereas BYU would be in a NY6 bowl if we ran the table. What you addressed was me trying to show that Boise State is never going to get into the playoffs (as a G5 team), whereas BYU has a minuscule chance of getting into the playoffs as an Independent.

I don’t believe BYU will beat all four P5 teams this year either. I think the games against Nebraska, UCLA, and Michigan are all winnable games, it just depends on how well we do in those games. I would love to see us upset Missouri, but I don’t think that we will. I think we will probably go 2-2, though I wouldn’t be surprised if we go 3-1 or 1-3 or even 0-4.

My main point was primarily to address whether BYU as an Independent or Boise State as a G5 (and therefore BYU as a G5 if we played at Boise State’s level) has a better chance of getting into the playoffs. While it is an extremely remote chance, BYU has a chance to go to the playoffs as an Independent, but that goes out the window if we go back to the MWC. Plus, our regular season is way more exciting as an Independent. The teams that would be the most exciting to play in the MWC are already on our schedule for next year, plus 4 P5 teams and some of the other good G5 teams.

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Bearloc,

I totally agree with you on all counts. I apologize to you for miss reading your other post that I responded to today.

“that goes out the window if we go back to the MWC. Plus, our regular season is way more exciting as an Independent. “

There is no going back to the MWC or any other G5 congress. The only way for us to go now is forward.
We can not retreat. We arwe indeed on the same page.

Thanks. Ron

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Mike H.

I totally agree with everything that you said in your post to me. Including that fact that we will have to agree to disagree on what I see as only one issue. That one issue is that we can never go back to being a G5 conference team.

Absolutely everything else in your approximately 450 word post is so close to my thinking that I could have written it myself.

I like your style of writing and your curtesy when in disagreement.

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As a fan, I believe that Brad Rock is entertaining a logical fallacy. He states that playing Wagner is more embarrassing than returning to the MWC, According to last year’s final Sagarin Ratings, which include both FBS and FCS divisions, Wagner was #180. Unfortunately, UNLV was ranked 172, San Jose State was ranked 153, New Mexico was 132 and Wyoming was 126. All of these teams had multiple lower division teams ranked ahead of them in the ratings. So, Brad Rock would have us trade playing a bad Wagner team for playing four or five bad teams every year. Additionally, the highest MWC team was ranked 36. Next year, we play multiple teams that finished the year ranked higher. If we were to move back to the MWC and we went undefeated, we would be in the same New Year’s day bowl that Boise State went to last year. If we went undefeated 12 years in a row, we would not get to the 4 team playoff. Our strength of schedule would be too low to qualify. With our current schedules, if we go undefeated, we at least have a chance for the playoff.
If getting to a New Year’s bowl game is our goal, return to the MWC may be a viable option. It is not a viable option if we want to go to the playoff.
Unfortunately, there is another problem. When BYU was in the MWC, they rarely got on TV. When they did, the broadcast was horrible. When they didn’t, they were not allowed to show it on BYUTV or anywhere else. The rest of the conference seemed to be okay with this because they got their 1 million per year from CBS. For me, this is the main reason that I want no part of returning to the MWC.

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Why bring it up again about MWC. We are not going back there and we are going to stay on the course as Independent. If we get called With P5 which would be a bonus, if not, stay at independent. But for how long this Independent going to survive? Then what next?

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Sorry, fans who use the MTN channel as a reason not to return don’t understand the current mwc TV deal. Boise state this year will play 8 games on ESPN and the other 4 on CBS sports. The mwc championship game will also be on ESPN.

Fans who were too cheap to pay for the MTN killed the channel, and if you can’t see the difference between the mwc TV deal today and back when we were in, you are not paying attention.

Side note, Byu played a huge role in creating the MTN as a member of the mwc, we only have ourselves to blame for that debacle. And the current byutv football broadcasting we run in the red btw. It’s not a profit center, it’s a debt.

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First of all, I haven’t cared enough about the MWC to investigate the current MWC TV deal. I agree that BYU shares part of the blame for the previous deal. However, it is enough to know that the MWC is still involved with CBS. The way CBS mismanaged the product that they had is absurd.
However, since I stated TV as a major reason that I have no interest in going back to the MWC, I decided to look into it. As I understand it, the MWC pays each team between 300,000 and 500,000 if they play a home game on ESPN. My understanding of the current BYU ESPN deal is that they get 800,000 to 1.5 million per home game broadcast on ESPN. Additionally, every game not on ESPN is available live on BYUTV. As a further bonus, any game where ESPN has broadcast rights is also available to be rebroadcast on BYUTV (home or away). So, in summary, BYU gets more money and the games are likely to be available to more people. How does this benefit BYU? Exposure.
As for fans being too cheap to pay for the Mountain…How about making the MTN available on cable and satellite? When this was happening, I lived in New York. I couldn’t get the MTN at any price. It simply wasn’t available. So, since I (and many other fans) couldn’t purchase the MTN, it is now our fault that it died?
So I will return your statement. If you can’t see the difference between the TV deal BYU has today and anything that the MWC has now or has had, you aren’t paying attention.
As further side note, BYUTV is an investment not a finished product. Yes, it’s still running in the red. It probably will for quite some time. However, long term, it will improve. It may not pay the same dividends that the Longhorn Network will pay, however, it is not intended to. It provides BYU with exposure. Also, since a large portion of the programing is not sports related, I don’t think the cost for BYUTV comes entirely out of the athletic budget if at all.

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BYU was LIED to by the MWC about MTN!

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RB Black,

Your statements above seems to be directed to something that I said in one of my statements above, however, I can not see where there is a difference in opinion from what you are saying and what I believe to be true. I agree with you. I have the same TV income facts that you have.

Neither of us what to go back to the MWC.

I don’t want to go back to the MWC, or join any G5 or worse yet, FCS conference.
I would rather stay Independent for as long as it takes, to get an invite to a P5 conference.

Both our AD and our HC has stated publicly, that a change needs to be made within the next few years. They have stated that financially, we can not sustain membership as an Independent, with the growing financial disparity between the P5 conference teams and the rest of the team.

They, the AD and the HC, have stated that a move from Independence needs to be made within approximately 3 years, as I understand it. This is the AD and the HC speaking and it is not me making this determination. I would like to stay Independent for as long as it takes to get a P5 Conference invitation.

If and when, that P5 conference invitation ever does come, I want us to join.

My first Choice, way above any other conference would be the Pac 12 because of it’s location, compared to where BYU is, and compared to the Church membership for a fan base support, and because of the prestige of the conference, and because of a possible renewed rivalry-ship with the Utah Utes, and because of our past relationship while in the WAC, where Arizona, Arizona State, and now, from the MWC, Utah Utes have all found their home in the Pac 8/10/12. Their is a feeling of family within the Pac 12 for Arizona, Arizona State, Utah Utes, and BYU if we get the invite…

I use to think that because of our Gay Issue politics, the teams near San Francisco, (Stanford, Cal, Oregon, Oregon State), would vote against us joining the conference. For that reason, I use to think that the Big 12 would be a better fit. I no longer feel that the Big 12 would be the better fit. At this point, I would want us to be grateful to be a part of any of the P5 conferences.

Unless I am missing something, I think that our beliefs and our opinions are more alike than they are different from each other.

Ron

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For a longtime I can’t understand why so many people thinking about the big 12. It is nonsense that pac12 are a research schools. We should fit in well with any of the p5 schools. All I can say is by going like this: " follow the AD, Follow the AD, Follow the AD; don’t go Astray, he knows the way and there is no going back to G5!"

Happy memorial weekend!