Hearld,
Do you really think that the SGBT community would think that we were nice at calling them
strange, odd or unusual ?
I think that part of our problem, is that we can not see our own faults.
Just FYI, I consider the Articles of Faith scripture because it is in cannonized scripture (Pearl of Great Price).
Not sure why you completely misunderstood what I was saying but I guess that it is common on internet chat boards. I really have no idea why you thought I was talking about what you are referring to. Iâm not sure where to begin to try and clean up the misunderstanding⌠sorry about that.
As a Mormon, spending most of my life outside of majority, or even substantial Mormon, areas, I am fully aware that Mormons, or at least our beliefs which in many cases means our actions are strange, odd and unusual. So no I donât think I should or they should take offense at reasonably accurate descriptions.
And Iâve had enough friends, and coworkers in the community, to know that like the N-word, the q-word, is used inside the community in its own particular way that when those outside the community use it in the now derogatory sense, they take offense.
âHe who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool.â is a quote Iâve learned is very wise counsel.
Yes Iâm aware that people take offense frequently when none was intended. And no I donât mean to use the quote as a tool to call others fools or greater fools. Just as one of those things Iâve learned is wise to live byâŚthat I wish were adopted by a wider pool of people.
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I know this issue isnât directly related to football but you all know how it relates indirectly. We live in a world that is changing quickly. There are issues that merit us digging in our heels and saying âwe are not going to budge come what may.â On the other hand, there are policies that need to change and be updated, especially as laws change. I recently lived in Brazil for a year. The church is growing rapidly in Brazil. The Brazilians are mostly Catholic and relatively conservative. But, as the U.S. goes, so goes Brazil. All of our social issues are being discussed there now. We need to figure out how to deal with these emerging issues with love and compassion without compromising our essential doctrines. These issues are not going away.
In âThe Family-A proclamation to the Worldâ the Church clearly states that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. That is our doctrine. The very next line states that all human beings are created in the image of God and are beloved spirit sons and daughters of God. If all his children are beloved, shouldnât we treat all his children with the same kind of love and compassion? The first great commandment is to love God and the second is to love our neighbor as ourselves. We believe that if we âhave not charity, we are nothing.â. The Family Proclamation doesnât just define marriage, it covers other moral issues too. Family is ordained of God and children are entitled to be born within the bonds of matrimony. Would it be right to withhold our love from grandchildren born out of wedlock or our children who break the law of chastity? The Family proclamation also states âParents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wivesâmothers and fathersâwill be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.â Parents with gay children or children that break the law, or children that have premarital relations need to remember their sacred duty to keep loving them. We need to remember that if we are truly living our religion, our sacred duty is to love them also. As I said before, I am struggling over the question of allowing gay couples to hold hands on campus so weâre in compliance with anti-discrimination laws. It doesnât go against our doctrine and I donât think it means we are now endorsing gay marriage. I do think it would go a long way towards making gay students feel more loved and accepted.
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I guess this is the part that I am not understanding. We are talking about this as if it is a huge problem within the church. I guess I just donât see it. Iâm not sure what is expected to satisfy all of those people who think the church or the members of the church do nothing to address it. I just donât see it that way. What does everyone expect to be done that isnât being done already?
I donât see there even being a molehill, but I sense that people are trying to make a mountain out of it anyway. What is it that everyone expects?
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So Hearld,
Are you saying that we have nothing to be concerned about if we use terms that offends a certain community of people as long as we have no intent on offending them?
Are you saying that it is there problem and not ours if they get offended if it was not our intent to offend them?
Are you saying that there is no need to try to be more aware of the concerns of others and we have no need to become
more sensitive to the needs of others?
Do you see yourself as most like the majority, in opinion, of all in our community, or do you see yourself as the minority, in opinion, of all in our community?
Jim,
Thank you for your reply.
You and I often misunderstand the positive things that each of us try to express.
One thing that we do have in common is that each of us, you and I, come across as loving our BYU Cougars
very much and feel deeply about their existing success and try to express opinions that may even, if the right
people hear what we are trying to say, help our cougars reach the next level and become all that each of us
know that they are capable of becoming.
I think that if each of us, you and I, try to find the positive that each of us are trying to express instead of being
on the defensive and trying to find fault in which each of us are saying, that the more positive approach will do
better things for the Cougars that each of us love.
Jim,
This is not intended to disagree with you, or with anyone else that feels that they are defending all things done in the name of the Church , right or wrong. Instead it is intended to only offer a different opinion, not suggesting that the additional opinion is better or worse, but it is just being offered as a different opinion. Here goes âŚ
I believe that if we follow the simple commandment that, âJudge not, lest ye be judged, and leave all judging to God,â
99% of the problems that we have today vs the Non Mormon world, would be gone or at the very least, greatly reduced.
I also believe, (and I know that I will have a million tons of complaints on this one), that with all the wars and rumors of wars, and with all the political unrest in the United States, England, Germany, Spain, Egypt and Poland, and with all the hunger and homelessness in the United States and in the rest of the world, And with the on going Nuclar threat from Iran, Russia, North Korea, Palastine, and others that may be willing to sell or give to the terrriorst, the Necular capability, that God probably trust our authorities to make some decisions on their own, regarding our Honor Code policies and other policies that may or may not seem acceptable to the rest of the world.
If this seems like a reasonable opinion, than maybe you or anyone else may accept the idea, that those things that we know to be doctrine, we hold on tightly to and make no compromise. Those things that we accept as policy and not necessary doctrine, we have an on going policy to contiue to review and improve upon those polices, what ever those policiey may be and try to make a real effort to comform to the Federal Laws and in doing so, please those outside of our fold and we make life even better for ourselves. Canât we just all get along?
Glen,
Yes I have read the Pearl of Great Price. It is one of my favorite books.
Am I wrong, or, didnât someone once ask Our President, just what it was that we believe in soon after the law was made saying that Polygamy was no longer allowed in the USA? Didnât that President sit down and write those things that we now call the Articles of Faith, explaining what it is that we believe in ? If so, in this context, do we call this doctrine or do we call it an explanation of what we believe in, or is there no difference between the two?
Glen, I like your posting, almost all of it and I do read all that you post. I am indeed one of your followers and I do feel that we agree with each other far more than we disagree. This is not meant as a challenge to what you say, but an honest inquiry of what you believe.
[quote=âRonald_Uharriet, post:27, topic:6868â]
Are you saying that we have nothing to be concerned about if we use terms that offends a certain community of people as long as we have no intent on offending them?[/quote]
NoâŚnor was intending to imply that. I find it disagreeable when people continue to use words that they know, or have been repeatedly told, others find offensive.
[quote=âRonald_Uharriet, post:27, topic:6868â]
Are you saying that it is there problem and not ours if they get offended if it was not our intent to offend them?[/quote]
Yes. Just as it is my problem when I am offended when others do the same.
[quote=âRonald_Uharriet, post:27, topic:6868â]
Are you saying that there is no need to try to be more aware of the concerns of others and we have no need to becomemore sensitive to the needs of others?[/quote]
No. Awareness of the concerns of others is in my view a fundamental Christian attitude.
[quote=âRonald_Uharriet, post:27, topic:6868â]
Do you see yourself as most like the majority, in opinion, of all in our community, or do you see yourself as the minority, in opinion, of all in our community?[/quote]
Iâm not sure what this question is referring to. I am in the minority in my religion, in my politics, in my gender, in almost every aspect in life. Thatâs my situation to deal with in its many different aspects.
Ron, thanks for your replies. Regarding the Articles of Faith, the Church considers them doctrinal. They were included as part of the Pearl of Great Price as you know so they would be considered canonized.
Jim, sorry for not explaining myself well. My point was that gay students need our love, compassion and empathy. If you listen to the video link above, you realize that these kids already have an uphill battle to get through this life as faithful LDS members. They are loved of God and we need to love them as well.
By the way, here is the BYU honor code policy on this issue:
Brigham Young University will respond to homosexual behavior rather than to feelings or orientation and welcomes as full members of the university community all whose behavior meets university standards. Members of the university community can remain in good Honor Code standing if they conduct their lives in a manner consistent with gospel principles and the Honor Code.
Oneâs stated sexual orientation is not an Honor Code issue. However, the Honor Code requires all members of the university community to manifest a strict commitment to the law of chastity. Homosexual behavior or advocacy of homosexual behavior are inappropriate and violate the Honor Code. Homosexual behavior includes not only sexual relations between members of the same sex, but all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings. Advocacy includes seeking to influence others to engage in homosexual behavior or promoting homosexual relations as being morally acceptable.
Violations of the Honor Code may result in actions up to and including separation from the University.
Will BYU violate anti-discrimination laws with this version of the honor code? Maybe. Sometimes saying less is better from a legal perspective. Why not keep the following statement and be done rather than specifying a different policy for gay students?
Oneâs stated sexual orientation is not an Honor Code issue. However, the Honor Code requires all members of the university community to manifest a strict commitment to the law of chastity and gospel principles.
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Ron, donât know if you know it or not but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a world wide church and not just a Utah church. The church opposing Prop 8 was not pushing or forcing our religion on others. We had a right to oppose or defend that Prop or any other Prop based on the possible impact to the Church, itâs doctrines and policies. That LGBTQ people and organizations are trying to punish the Church is something that we will have to cope with. If we never ever get into a P5 conference because of exercising our God and constitution giving rights that is alright with me even though I will not like it (not like the tactics or not getting into a P5 conference). When LGBTQ folks came to Utah from California and protested and did what they could to undermine LDS related businesses was that interference and forcing or were they exercising their constitutional rights.
Ron: âWhen the LDS Church and itâs University, each based in Utah, created an orchestrated campaign to go into California elections and be a major contrubuter to stopping the LGBTâs from having the right to marry, because marriage was to be between one man and one woman, than that was pushing our beliefs on one segment on the California Society that not only did not believe in it but also had no desire to obide by it. That is interference with others beliefs and trying to force our beliefs on them, thus, denying them the opportunity of marriage because they do not believe as we do.â Ok Ron, if you want to use DNC type talking points if you wish but I will not be subject to them.
The critics can remember or forget at they will. All we know is that the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that marriage is between one man and one woman. Accept it or reject it as you desire.
(Ron) âIn this country any group, be they religious or non-religious, have the right to express their concerns about policies that would impact the church. They also have a right to send missionaries into the world to spread the word to those willing to hear. Others also have the right to react to the message be it positive or negative. In the case of the LGBT group, in response to our interference with California Prop 8, the response negative and hurtful and we will all feel the pain if that response keeps us from ever getting to the next level in a P5 conference. If we learn from this experience of being kept out of Power 5 conferences be they Pac 10/12 or Big 12, or by presidence, all of the other 3 P5 conferences, it may have been worth it if we learn anything from it. The slower we are at learning, the less helpful the lesson becomes.â So Ron, if the LDS Church expresses their constitutional rights to oppose Prop 8 that is âinterferenceâ but other groups can express (no interference with them) their concerns. If P5 conferences reject BYU because of these issues, so be it. I would expect this to be Godâs will, just as our getting into a P5 conference would be Godâs will. Let the LGBTQ people bring all the hate, pain and hurt they desire.
(Ron) âI am 81 years old, I have been many times in every country of Europe, Iberia, Scandanvia, United Kingdom, Northern Africa, Most of the Middle East, Canada, Mexico, Central America and I have lived in Mexico and Germany, and I have witnessed the Church, or itâs members,forcing their beliefs on others that did not appreciated it.
One time, while living in Germany, at an LDS branch in Heidleburg, I was asked by the Branch President, to not bring my guest with me to Church anymore because he was half black.â Mormons, including GAs, Stake Presidents, Bishops, Branch Presidents, et al are fallible human beings and do not necessarily represent the doctrine, policy or procedure of the entire Church when they take those actions.
(Ron) âWhile living in California, I was asked by some gay acquaintances why the Church in Utah would interfer with their California elections causing, at least until the surpreme court over ruled the election, the LGBT community from being able to marry? (So why shouldnât that same LGBT group feel like they should keep that group from joining any P5 conference?)â I reject the word and connotation of âinterference.â LGBTQ people have every right to exercise their constitutional rights, while abiding the law, in opposing BYU inclusion in any and all P5 conferences.
(Ron) âDonât let the name brand get in the way of the product. Do belittle any religion that in their own way, tries to bring people closer to Christ and God the Father.â I have no idea what this is about. Also, you seem to be intimating that I cannot or will not extend my hand in friendship or fellowship to LGBTQ people who act in good faith. The hypocrisy of this is interesting.
The Articles of Faith was written by Joseph Smith way long before polygamy was made illegal in the USA.
Polygamy was first outlawed in Virginia Colony about a decade before the revolution. It was first outlawed in England about 20 years before thatâŚthe Council of Trent outlawed it for Catholics during the reformation to make sure the Protestant polygamists who were restoring the ancient way knew they were anathema at that time as well.
It was not against federal law until after the church moved to Utah. And interestingly except for a few pockets like the UCMJ, polygamy is no longer against federal law generally today.
Marriage, except for the Mormon polygamy exception and the DOMA, (we do have something in common with our LBGQT fellows:) has always been left to the states.
I believe that our Heavenly Father is not that concerned with whether or not BYU gets into a P-5 conference.
I believe that our Heavenly Father is very concerned with whether or not his children are following his plan for their eternal happiness.
Getting into a P-5 conference has very little to do with anyoneâs eternal destiny while marriage and families has everything to do with our eternal destiny.
I believe these things are true. I donât believe they are just an opinion that I subscribe to or an idea I have.
Roy,
Thanks for the update. I really didnât remember if it was Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young and that is why I said, Our President. I stand corrected on the before vs after. Thanks. I appreciate the correction.
Do you really trust the current or future political leader(s) of this country to make decisions on their own? Or rather decisions that are best for this country and the world? I think they have failed miserably in that regard. I donât believe they can do it because they are selfish, godless and corrupt. More importantly I donât think most people care one way or the other.
As for policies, I hope you are not suggesting that we try to do what is acceptable to the rest of the world when we find our society in a situation where âanything goesâ is the accepted way of doing things. If we donât try to stand for what is right by following Godâs commandments, who will?
Very good reading! I hope and pray that I can make it into the third group
By Greg Trimble Faith
The 3 Types Of Mormons In The Last Day
On June 16th 1844 Joseph Smith gave what is known as the âSermon in the Grove.â It was one of the last things weâd ever hear from the prophet and it got cut short on account of the rain. He was only eleven days away from his martyrdom at Carthage and he knew that his time was drawing near. Before the rain ended the sermon, Joseph said something that is as applicable today as it was in 1844 Nauvoo. He said, âI have reason to think the Church is being purged.â
When you combine that statement with a revelation given in Kirtland on July 23, 1837 also known as Doctrine & Covenants 112âŚyou get the feeling that it will not be an easy task to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the last days. The revelation states that âgross darknessâ is covering the minds of the people and that âvengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation.â
But whatâs most interesting is that so many of us assume that itâs the secular world thatâs going to take the brunt of these troubled times. Thatâs not the case at all. In fact, the Lord says that âupon my house (Mormons) shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forthâŚfirst among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house.â (D&C 112:23-26)
SoâŚIâve observed 3 types of Mormons in the church these days, but I believe that only the third type will be able to endure the trials of faith that are here now and are coming soon.
- The Stalwart But Stubborn Mormon
These Mormons are full of faith and are used to the standard narrative. They cling to what theyâve learned in primary and cringe at anything that might contradict the things theyâve learned for so long. Change is tough for this group of Mormons. They might quote the scripture that says âGod is the same yesterday, today, and foreverâ and assume that the church will also be the same yesterday, today, and forever. They still think that Joseph Smith sat at a table with a sheet between he and Oliver Cowdrey as he traced the engravings on the gold plates and translated for hours on end. They like how Abraham sought for further light and knowledge but have trouble applying that same principle to themselves . What they knowâŚis what they know, and nothing else seems to matter.
This type of Mormon doesnât think much of church scholars. They have their old library of books at home that consist of Mormon Doctrine, Doctrines of Salvation, and a host of other similar titles that were published between the 1970âs and 1985. They have the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley on their shelf but had a hard time getting through them. Critics of the church would call these peopleâŚsheeple. They would sarcastically call them âTBMâsâ or âTrue Believing Mormons.â
I love this group of Mormons. They are faithful and obedient. They always seem to be there to help and are generally service oriented. Their only issue is how they might react to people that have questions about their faith. If the questions or statements they hear from others contradict or disrupt their long held understanding of somethingâŚthey can sometimes get defensive and exhibit a condemning attitude toward the questioner. This behavior might make the questioner feel stupidâŚand can really turn off a struggling member that may have not had the same testimony building experiences that they have had. As Paul saidâŚthis stalwart but stubborn Mormon may have a âzeal but not according to knowledgeâ wherein they are immoveable in their position on a portion of church history or doctrine, while being genuinely wrong all at the same time. Lots of zealâŚbut lacking correct knowledge causes the same situation Alma was witnessing in the church. They âbegan to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.â These people have a major problem with just saying âI donât knowâŚbut lets discussâ which leads to innocently but ignorantly misleading others who might be honestly seeking.
types of mormons
2. The Curious But Furious Mormon
This group of Mormons is smallâŚbut growing very fast because of the transparency of the internet and social media. They are good hearted and sensitive people that have taken seriously the admonition of Joseph Smith to âgo on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness.â
But as theyâre searching, they are finding things that contradict the things they may have learned in Primary and Sunday School. Some of those things as Elder Ballard has recently mentioned are âless known or controversial, such as polygamy, seer stones, different accounts of the First Vision, the process of translation of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham, gender issues, race and the priesthood, or a Heavenly Mother.â
[I read the most amazing book on these topics recently called âA Reason For Faithâ that gives clear and honest background on each of these topics. The âcontroversial topicâ essays Elder Ballard is referring to can also be found here at LDS.org ]
Where the stalwart but stubborn Mormon might shun or ignore these topics and go about his or her business, the curious but furious Mormon might jump to wrong conclusions on incomplete information from less than reputable sources and make rash decisions regarding their faith. Once a person has made a rash decision, human nature and inherent pride makes it very difficult to reverse that decision for fear of seeming âwishy-washy.â Most of the time, when someone makes a rash decision, they end up getting behind their decision 100% regardless of whether they know if it was right or wrong.
This type of Mormon is the one that approaches the other type of Mormon (The Stalwart But Stubborn Mormon) discussed above and asks them why the Sunday School manual has a picture of Joseph and Oliver sitting at the table with a sheet in front of them when in reality, Joseph used a seer stone in a hat to translate while the plates remained covered. If the stalwart but close-minded Mormon reacts defensively or arrogantlyâŚa battle of truth vs. tradition ensues and no one is the winner. In many cases, this type of Mormon is right about various aspects of church history but many times doesnât stick around long enough to see the issue rectified in the upcoming manual. The curious Mormon now becomes a furious Mormon and believes theyâve been lied to maliciously for all these yearsâŚwhile the stalwart but close-minded Mormon has lost a brother or sister to help them run the ward council.
Both types of Mormons contribute to the attrition.
groups of mormons
3. The Stalwart But Curious Mormon
Ahhhh. FinallyâŚa group of Mormons that are exciting to discuss. This group of Mormons consist of a marriage between the two previous groups of Mormons. Interestingly enoughâŚthe two above groups of Mormons, put together, makes the sort of Mormon that has the intellectual and spiritual ability to pull down the powers of heaven on a regular basis and work modern miracles. This is the sort of Mormon Joseph Smith was. This is the sort of Mormon that is firm in their faith but always open to discuss different points of view. Theyâre looking for truth and willing to accept it even if it contradicts their current views. These are the Mormons that are truly learning and growing as they combine their faith and intellect to navigate through tough times.
These Mormons are more interested in helping people than they are at âbeing right.â They are better at listening and understanding than they are at speaking and postulating. This type of Mormon has no illusions of the church being perfect, the people or leaders being perfect, or the history being 100% accurate as itâs recorded in a 1980âs Sunday School manual. This Mormon is ready and willing to listen when Elder Ballard says you should learn about these controversial essays and topics and know them âlike you know the back of your hand.â This Mormon knows that the narrative in the church can change over time, but that the doctrine can still remain pure and true and unlike any other theology this world has ever seen.
This is the true disciple of Christ. This is the peacemaker and knowledge seeker. This is type of Mormon that will usher in the Second Coming of Christ. This is the type of Mormon I want to beâŚ
mormons
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