BYU and the LGBT community

Football
161

Fish,

My heart goes out to you.

There was a very strong member of this board, extremely active and fully supportive of the Church, that once stated, months ago, that: (I paraphrase because I do not remember the exact words):

Not all that the General Authorities say is as a direct communication from the Lord. Some things they say are opinions. Some things they say are policy. Some things they say are Gospel because the message does come as a a result of communication with the Lord.

I grew up in a generation that no matter what Ward you were in or what Stake you were in or what state you were in, it was taught that the Blacks could not hold the Priesthood because of the War in Heaven where the whites, taking the side of Jesus, could hold the Priesthood; while those taking the side of Judas, the brother of Jesus could not take a body at all, those that sat on the fence could indeed come to earth with the dark skin, but could not hold the Priesthood until a later time.

It was in the middle 1950’s that the General Authorities told us that this was never doctrine. No where in the bible or in the D&C or B of M or Pearl of GP does it say that this was ever doctrine. For a period of months at the most, the reason given was Cane and Able. Very soon, that was denied and the official statement was that this was one of the Mysteries that we don’t understand, but in time, all things will be known. Two decades later, the Blacks were given full membership where they too could now hold the Priesthood.

Perhaps the question should be this:

Is there anywhere in the Bible, (old or new testament), anywhere in the DC; anywhere in the B of M; anywhere in the Pearl of Great Price that states that it is doctrine that the homosexual should not have a Temple Recommend if he practices his natural sexual being, or that he should see himself/herself as a lesser Christian if he practices his own sexual preference,
or that he should be forced to be A-sexual for his whole life if indeed the idea of heterosexual behavior is repulsive to him or her.

Perhaps the question should be asked if Infidelity among heterosexuals is as bad as homosexual behavior. Is Rape among heterosexuals as bad as homosexual activity. Is fornication among heterosexuals as bad as homosexual activity. Finally, should all wrong sexual activity be treated equally bad, where it is deemed to be bad?

I am much more comfortable when the Church stays out of politics. I am much more comfortable when the Church is all inclusive rather than segregators . I like it best when the church points out our similarities than our differences with others.
I am much more comfortable when we are all inclusive than I am when we are not.

162

Ah yes, that great god that makes gay people and then condemns them to hell. Oh, yes…wait a minute…being gay is a choice, what was I thinking. Thank you for opening my eyes. Now everything is A-OK.

163

GR: No Ron. You did try to say homosexual behavior isn’t a sin and that things were changing. Pointing out other sexual sins as I already did doesn’t mean this specific sin isn’t doctrinal. It is. There are many other biblical versus too. It’s also not conservatives fixated on LGBT. It’s liberals and LGBT that keep bring things up.

164

God didn’t make gays. Adam and Eve caused perfect bodies to change to imperfect bodies and corruptible. I do believe most gays choose to do it and their brains become reprobate. Romans 1 says this too. And as the Brethren continue to say, it’s not right to sin regardless.

165

Sexual intercourse except between a married man and woman violates the law of chastity. It is as simple as that. If we engage in sexual activity outside that which is sanctioned by God we cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom unless we repent. Any other discussion on the matter is peripheral to that fact.

The fact that we have a so called LGBT community united as a political force is a symptom of a sick society far too focused on sex. The fact that I am heterosexual is just small part of who I am. The fact that a very small percentage of the world population decided that their sexual proclivities is what defines them and that they want the rest of the world to redefine marriage, acceptable sexual practices, gender identity, etc. is just a sign that we live in a fallen world. When Adam fell the Earth changed from Terresterial world to a Telestial world. Not only did Adam fall but all of creation fell and became subject to sin and death.

Although we advance technologically the better part of humanity continues to decay spiritually. The Earth received a baptism of water cleansing it from evil at the time of Noah and will receive a baptism of fire that will transform it to a Terrestial world before it receives its final sanctification and becomes a Celestial world. Only those of us fit for a Celestial existence will be there. The fact that the better part of the world continues to redefine normalcy and morality is irrelevant to the eternal laws of God. The homosexual, like the adulterer, liar, thief, drunkard, murderer etc. will have to repent and be cleansed. We all have to examine ourselves daily to see where we are at. Am I thief.? If I don’t make up the time it took to write this post then I have stolen from my employer. If I am not completely truthful then I am a liar to a degree. I think the key is to help each other improve in a charitable way but not to excuse sinful behavior because of political and social pressure.

I really can’t wrap my head around the LGBT alliance. It has been alleged that lesbians and gays are wired to be attracted to the same sex as themselves and they can’t help who they love. It is difficult for me to understand how a bisexual person fits in this unholy alliance other than as a political alliance. Is a bisexual person wired in such a way that they can’t help carnally loving anybody of any sex that they are attracted to? I believe in the case of the bisexual it is clearly lust and and not a genetic anomaly that drives who they are. Why should people who have monogamous loving relationships with the same sex align themselves with lustful deviants. Why are trangender people part of this alliance? It seems they are something entirely different. I think the answer as to why they are all united is that it adds to their paltry numbers in terms of the overall percentage of the population they make up and makes them a more viable political force. It is all about pushing an agenda on the majority. I seriously doubt that all of the LGBT community collectively adds up to more than 5% of the world wide population and their political power in the USA is vastly disproportionate to their actual numbers. In fact one study I read indicated the percentage of the LGBT population was about 3.8. The 10% number I believe to be propaganda propounded by the LGBT community itself, and their supporters, to give the impression that their numbers are greater than they really are.

166

Your analysis is very accurate and backed up by doctrine in the scripture and the Brethren. I also scratch my head when LGBT supporters in the Church try to equate this with black’s and the priesthood.

167

Reed, I don’t have many answers but this I do know. The LGBT alliance exists because they find love and support there. Gone are the days where a gay person suffered in silence.

I do not support the LGBT alliance, I don’t know for what purpose God creates gay people but I do know that my son tried with all his heart to follow the Lord. He served an honorable mission, tried to marry a girl in the temple but in the end, he had to walk away…for her happiness and for his. My wife and I have full faith that what we are doing in regards to our son is the right thing to do.

Now, I asked a question about why Elder Nielsen’s Fireside talk has been removed from LDS.org. I am asking you, Reed and anyone else on Cougarfan, Why was it removed?

https://www.lds.org/error.xqy?lang=eng&r=nc2

168

I can’t answer your question because I have never read the talk. If there is access to it somewhere I would be interested to read it and then maybe I could comment. I don’t know why certain people are gay. I don’t believe they should be mistreated but it seems clear in church doctrine that marriage is between a man and a woman and sexual relationships outside the marriage covenant are considered sinful. We are to do what we can to help each other overcome our sins. I have a daughter who has chosen to disobey the word of wisdom, the law of chastity, and many other commandments. I don’t believe she was created to be the way she is. I believe she is like the rest of us who succumb to urges we shouldn’t as a result of our fallen nature. I still love her.

1 Like
169

Grasshopper. I do like you. I do like your writings. I like your opinions and your knowledge.
I do believe in this case, you’ve misjudged when you say that “I am trying to say”.

Grasshopper, I TRY never to Judge, be it for good or for bad. I really do try to leave all judging to God.

I will repeat what I said above… "[quote=“grasshopper, post:163, topic:6868”]

I never suggested in any way that homosexual practices was or was not a sin. What I did suggest is that homosexuality is not the only sexual sin, yet that is the sin that we focus on, putting the other sexual sins aside.
[/quote]

In another post, that I can not find here now, I said that Adulty, Rape, Incest, and laying with other animals are other sins that are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, however, we choose to focus on the homosexual.

I make these comments not to argue; not to find fault with the Church or the members of the Church, but to hopefully pass on what I have heard from non members that have family members or friends that were born with the genes that cause them to prefer same sex partners.

My heart goes out not only to fish above, but to all LDS members that believe in the Church so much, that they take their own lives in order to not offend the Church, or their family, or their friends. I think that this is a subject that needs to be talked about,

It is easy for us heterosexuals to say that being born that way is not a sin, but acting on those impulses is.

We are in fact, asking the LGBT community to either go their entire life without sex, or take their own lives as to not offend.

We think we can encourage them to have sex with the opposite sex, while realizing at the same time, how repulsive it would be for us heterosexuals to have sex with our same sex.

Sometimes, I think that we could do better. That is all I am TRYING to say.

170

RU: It is easy for us heterosexuals to say that being born that way is not a sin, but acting on those impulses is.

GR: assuming they are born that way. Romans 1 says they changed their natural ways. So, while there may be some biologically born that way, many changed to that way. Probably most in my opinion. A “reprobate mind” has something to do with it. For whatever reason, some people start thinking about this and through a compulsive pattern of this change what is in seamlessly vile to something good. I’ve known heterosexual girls switch do to being raped. Who knows what goes on in young child’s mind when polluted by seeing or hearing about these vile acts. TV now portrays homosexual acts as exciting and good okay to do. What does this do with a child’s mind.

RH: We are in fact, asking the LGBT community to either go their entire life without sex, or take their own lives as to not offend.

GR: we aren’t asking them to take their own lives. We are asking them not to participate in sexual acts outside the bounds of heterosexual marriage. Just like everyone else. God is asking for this.

RU: We think we can encourage them to have sex with the opposite sex, while realizing at the same time, how repulsive it would be for us heterosexuals to have sex with our same sex.

GR: we are told not to encourage heterosexual relationships. If it happens it happens. We have a CougarFan that has stated in this forum he is gay. He has stated that no woman has ever turned him on except for one, his wife. He doesn’t know why she affects him when not even the hottest woman do. I think he’s been true to the faith and has received great blessings.

RU: Sometimes, I think that we could do better. That is all I am TRYING to say.

GR: Do better? Like what? Ignor doctrine? Ignor the prophet? Ignor everything?

171

Reed, this is the closest you are going to get to reading it as the church has erased the talk and all references to it.
Elder Nelson makes clear the LDS policy on same-sex attraction is the ‘will of the Lord’ | The Millennial Star

172

“On the subject of public discourse, we should all follow the gospel teachings to love our neighbor and avoid contention. Followers of Christ should be examples of civility. We should . . . be good listeners and show concern for the sincere belief [of others.] Though we may disagree, we should not be disagreeable

173

God didn’t make gay people anymore than he causes disasters.

174

He made you

175

I’ll put it another way, God didn’t make people gay. He didn’t put girl spirits in boy bodies.
Heavenly Father is the father of our spirits. Adam is the father of our bodies. When Adam fell, thorns, thistles and diseases were able to corrupt bodies. Satan is able to corrupt spirits.
Therefore, when a small percentage of the population (3.5%) feel they are attracted to same sex persons, 2 possibilities for this exist. They can either be tempted or they are born that way. The scriptures suggest they changed from heterosexual to homosexual after being born.

176

Scott,

I like you. I respect you. I have appreciation for your interpretations of the Gospel of the Bible and the teachings of
the Church, The DC, BM, and PGP, however, my interpretations are different, when it comes to the Bible, while admitting,
your interpretations may be better when it comes to the DC, the BM and the PGP.

Perhaps we should respectfully agree to disagree on this subject, while staying close on other issues.

Ron

177

I’m not sure how you can come up with anything different in Romans 1:24-27 because the heading for the chapter agrees with me. The prophets in this dispensation continue to agree with me and so do the apostles. How are you interpreting it? I’d be interested.

178 
A recent trend in biblical scholarship holds that a careful reading of Genesis in its historical context offers no solid
    basis to conclude that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah had anything to do with homosexuality.

I DISAGREE.  I feel that homosexuality, in part, along with improper behavior of heterosexuals with off forms of   
    deviate behavior, i.e. lying with animals, wife swapping, infidelity, group sex,  and all other un-natural behaviors by 
    both homosexuals and heterosexuals, did indeed bring about the destruction of Sodom and Grammar. 

I am in no way saying that heterosexuality is not considered to be a sin.  I am only stating that along with 
    homosexuality, there is much in heterosexuality that is also considered to be a sin.

I am guilty of taking that a step further in saying that we tend to put more emphases on the sin of the homosexual 
    while putting less emphases on the sin of the heterosexual.

In my opinion, Scott, this is were we differ in opinions, perhaps because we have had different life experiences.  
    Your life experiences are as valid for you as my life experiences are valid for me and those around me, and yes, I am
     very,, very, very much a heterosexual and for me, any personal thoughts of being involved in any homosexual activity 
    is extremely repulsive for me, as it would be for you.
179

So, we don’t disagree.

180

Not a reply, but a redistribution of words per line in order to have all words
show on this page. Leaving key words out, as done above, gives the
wrong impression as to what I am trying to convey:

A recent trend in biblical scholarship holds that a 
careful reading of Genesis in its historical context 
offers no solid basis to conclude that the destruction 
of Sodom and Gomorrah had anything to do with 			
    homosexuality.

I DISAGREE.  I feel that homosexuality in part,  along 
with improper behavior of heterosexuals with all forms 
of deviate behavior, i.e. lying with animals, wife swapping, 	
    infidelity and all other un-natural behaviors by both 
homosexuals and heterosexuals, did indeed bring about 
the destruction of Sodom and Grammar. It says so in 
too many chapters in the Bible, not to be true.

I am in no way saying that heterosexuality is not 
considered to be a sin.  I am only stating that along with 		
    homosexuality, there is much in heterosexuality that is 
also considered to be a sin.

I am guilty of taking that a step further in saying that we 
tend to put more emphases on the sin of the homosexual 	
    while putting less emphases on the sin of the heterosexual.

In my opinion, Scott, this is were we differ in opinions, 
perhaps because we have had different life experiences.  
Your life experiences are as valid for you as my life 		
experiences are valid for me and those around me, and 
yes, I am very,, very, very much a heterosexual and for me, 	
    any personal thoughts of being involved in any homosexual 	
    activity is extremely repulsive for me, as it would be for 
you.  I can only imagine that  it would be equally repulsive
    for a homosexual to have sex with the opposite sex.

    I believe that with the alarming number of suicides among 
    our LDS LGBT community, it is worth finding solutions starting
    with the problem put on these people that love the Church
    the family, their friends, but ------------------ !