BYU is NIT bound

current bracketology.

I would like to see BYU as a 2 seed but reality has them as a 3-4 seed. That would mean 1 game at home for sure but a loss on the road.
I am sooooo tired of BYU teams in basketball (both the women’s and men’s beating some really good teams and then laying an egg on easy teams and really getting hammered in seedings. It just shows us that we are lacking in talent.

Best of luck to both teams.

Is lack of talent or lack of skill development? 10 layups and 4 swats at the basket. Seljass layup towards the end is an example. Instead of going up strong and “up and under” Sabonis he turns away from the basket and no looks a backwards flip exposing the ball for the easy swat. Or Fischer’s attempts that hit the bottom of the rim?
If Rose wants to run and challenge inside with guards then we have to be able to finish at the rim. We should have won that game regardless of poor officiating.

Chris… you need to think a little more about what you are saying.

So BYU’s teams beat some really good teams (does that mean talent or lacking in talent?) but then lays eggs on easy teams and getting hammered in seedings (does that mean no talent or lacking in talent?) because it is kind of all over the place. Which one is it? Does BYU have talent when they beat good teams or do they lack talent when they lose to easy teams?

I think it is more a question of this… Does BYU need to change their style of play in certain games or do they play the same style in every game? How does the supposed wcc official thing fit in? Now that everyone knows wcc officials are also mwc, pac-12 (and every other league officials) do we still make the claim of “rec. league”? I need to make my point again because I think it is something many of you see some of the time but fail to recognize a lot of the time. The wcc, the mwc, the pac-12 and could be the Big-12 doesn’t take kindly to any success on BYU’s part. Utah has had that thorn stuck in their side for decades. Many of you have said it over the years, including you I believe, that BYU typically starts a game in a 10 point hole and must play that much better in order to win a game. Is that belief simply convenient or just forgotten from time to time? That is the primary reason the BYU men lost to Gonzaga in the tournament. They weren’t able to make up that 10 point deficit handicap they start the game with. This time it came in the form of some missed easy shots, 10 more free throws for Gonzaga, no fouls called on Sabonis or Wiltjer. And speaking of Kyle… what are the chances that a slow, poor defending white kid makes it? Probaby not bad if his name isn’t Jimmer Fredette.

People have to occasionally be reminded or they forget the how’s and why’s, of being a BYU team, that automatically put you in a disadvantageous position before you even start a contest…

I fully support the “10 Point Hole” theory. I’ve been experiencing it for 30 years of BYU sports.

I’ll tell you two sports BYU does really well in on the big stage. Both are cases of it being very difficult for officials to influence games. Rugby and Volleyball. It’s no surprise that BYU falls short in big games in football and basketball, where the officiating is incredibly subjective.

I like the idea of testing the theory against sports with less influence from the refs. But I think the converse should be looked at too. Sports where outside judgement is more important also need to be looked at.

If the theory holds true then BYU teams should do the worst in the sports that most rely on referee/ judges decisions. BYU teams should do the best in sports where the prejudice has the least possibility of influencing the outcome.

Given BYU’s success on the bball court and the football field somehow the theory rings a bit hollow…

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I think it is important to define the word “success” as it relates to those two sports. I think for purposes of this discussion the term is relative. Their success is relative to their potential. If you believe that the teams have little potential then yes, I think they are successful… because they exceed their potential. If you think they have a lot of potential then no, I don’t think they are successful… because they don’t exceed or even measure up to that potential.

Should the basketball team be playing in the ncaa tourney this season? I believe they should have, but they lost numerous games they should have won and when it mattered they fell short. So what about the football team? Should they have done better? What was expected? I think they came close to “meeting” expectations but when it mattered they fell short. The also came through when they had to a couple of times. The end result was a bad loss to a mediocre utah team in their bowl game. To me that means they fell short of expectations.

I could bring in officiating to the equation but that would only cause some others who don’t understand that part of the 10 point deficit equation to spew forth a bunch of nonsense and rhetoric. The effect of poor officiating rarely affects BYU’s opponents like it does the Cougars. It is a known, historical fact and something that has been observed and a part of the equation forever.

if the theory is true is should be true across all the sports, and be stronger for the ones with more referee effect and less for the sports with less referee effects.

It just doesn’t seem to be the case…

Harold: Football and Men’s Basketball are the only two sports that make colleges $$, so they are the most likely to be tampered with because of the $millions$ of dollars at stake. I’m not sure of your point. Are you trying to say you think BYU football and basketball are officiated fairly and objectively? That there are no biases and no Conference or NCAA winner/loser preferences that officials are aware of? Hmmm.

With all this said, this is only part of BYU’s sports problem. Our much bigger obstacle is the Honor Code/LDS Standards. Then we have no P5 Conference which hurts recruiting. And we have high academic standards that prevent BYU from recruiting the standard talented jock straight outa Compton. I’m all for our standards and I’m ok with constantly being “pretty good” in major sports. But to discount officiating bias is pretty naive if you ask me.

Craig L: Right on, the bias marches on.

or could it be that Gonzaga is a very well coached team that teaches players good fundamentals? Sabonis, a first rounder. Wiltjar, maybe a NBA prospect. Few’s teams remind me of Popavich of San Antonio. He just plugs in another piece.

This all goes back to what I was saying about recruiting Mr. Basketball types who are great offensive stat fillers throughout their HS years, when they come to BYU, are poor defenders. It is the only way to explain BYU’s top team offensive rating coupled with one of the worse defenses in all D1.

The Rose culture will never change while he is the head coach but with the arrival of more athletic players such as TJ, Mika, Childs we may see a big change on the court. Better athletes = better defenders and that is what we are lacking but lets quit blaming the WCC for losing to Gonzaga…anyone that shoots close to 50% on their 3s coupled with to phenoms in Sabonis and Wiltjar are going to win 99 out of 100 games.

Rose’s defenses have been up and down.

The defense this year was much improved. Most efficient in the conference and top 20% in division one. Not as good as Brandon Davies last year, but the best since then.

My impression is that the emphasis the Coach Lewis was brought in for worked and will continue to get better.

Chatman and Emery are both solid if not better defenders and Brig is supposed to be pretty good meaning that if the paint can get shored up the future on the defensive side will continue to improve. Maybe not to the extent of the Jackson Jimmer years but I wouldn’t be surprised.

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Check me on this one, but is this phenomenal Gonzaga team the same one that was swept by St. Mary’s this season? The same St. Mary’s team that was 5th in the nation in scoring defense and for some odd reason completely abandon that incredible defense in the final of the wcc tourney? Like Harold said, BYU’s defense improved, did it not? Why was Lewis brought in? They aren’t the best out there but they are better. And let’s be frank and honest here, this year’s version of “phenomenal Gonzaga and the mastermind Few” is not one of their better teams. They were in danger of not even making the tournament until they miraculously won the wcc debacle. BYU lost by 4 points and you think it was all because Few and the Zags are just so awesome? Gimme a break…

So how do we explain the great Gonzaga team that was destroyed by the defensive genius of the Fredette led BYU team only a “FEW” years ago in the ncaa tourney? Ironically the very year before BYU became a member of the WCGC - west coast gonzaga conference.

I’m surprised you don’t see what is going on, but you have to admit that there is a tendency on your part to chant the “wait until next year” mantra that has become the bane of so many BYU fans. Doesn’t it get tired and old? In the back of your mind, aren’t you plagued by the ominous feeling that there might never be a “next year” in this conference? I’m sorry but I disagree, the wcc has been kissing Gonzaga’s proverbial behind for a record 17 years now and there are no signs of it slowing down in the future, regardless of how phenomenal Few’s teams are or aren’t.

I think part of our problem this year was not-quite-enough athleticism, but part of it was also Rose’s dogged determination to play zone. We were not fast enough or long enough to rotate onto the shooters. For heaven’s sakes, Wiltjer’s last two 3 pointers were both UNCONTESTED when we left him alone in zone. Best guy on the court and we are leaving him wide open in the last 3 minutes. Real smart. But why did we have to play so much zone? Because the refs took all our bigs out of the game and we didn’t have anyone to guard Wiltjer and Sabonis. We win that game if Kaufusi is not in foul trouble or if Sabonis was called for 3 or 4 of the 10 or 15 very physical plays he made on D.

I didn’t watch, but noticed in the box score that in the championship game Wiltjer and Sabonis also had free reign, because Pineau–STM’s only viable inside defender–fouled out. His backup, Clark, had 4 fouls in 17 minutes. So STM was really handcuffed in any attempt to make a comeback. Pineau only fouled out 3 times all year–twice vs GU.

I agree. Won loss records dispell these conspiracy theories. The reason for falling behind early in many losses has more to do with coaches preparing players for the kickoff or jump ball😎

so is it Sabonas and Wiltjer are that good? Or is it that they are NBA talents and we have weak defenders down low.

Hawks is busy with his conspiracy theory. I think you have to look at the season as a whole, Kaufusi is always in foul trouble, The games Sabonas was in foul trouble were the games Gonzga lost. I told KC as much before they left and guess what, we did not get Sabonas in foul trouble, game over. In fact go back and see what I wrote before the season even started and it went something like this: BYU would replace Haws shooting with Emery and Fischer and if Kaufusi, Aytes and Davis get it going inside, BYU would be WCC champs. Well???
No inside game, no champs in the WCC, MWC or any conference.

so here are the cold hard facts…

Sabonas gets 14 rebounds, the rest of our bigs? Davis 4, Kaufusi 6, Austin 4.

Gonzaga shots 49%, BYU shoots 44%. Gonzaga shoots 43% from 3. BYU 38%. Gonzaga has 40 rebounds, BYU 33 for the game. BYU got beat on every single aspect of the game except for turnovers. So while I would love to believe that BYU gets hoosed in the WCC. I just don’t see it…

BYU has had no inside game outside of KC going to the hoop all year long and we expect some kind of different outcome when we play Gonzaga. I though it was a miracle that BYU was in the game and had a chance to win it in the end.

What has happened to your analytical skills? You are sounding more and more like Gavenman all the time. I don’t like saying that but that is the way it appears. Let me guess, if BYU had just made some more layups and “easy shots” they would have won, right?

There are so many questions I could ask but I’m not sure you are seeing the bigger picture. Gonzaga was/is nothing more than a mediocre team this season. How were they swept by St. Mary’s? Was it the powerful inside game of the Gaels? I could go on and on. I vaguely remember you talking about how college basketball is so guard driven that without a great point guard and outside scorers a team isn’t going anywhere… but now it is the “inside game” and big guys that win championships? Is this the flavor of the month club or what?

I don’t have to “be busy with my conspiracy theory” because the facts speak for themselves. Gonzaga has been in the final of the wcc tournament every year since anybody can remember and they usually win it. When they don’t it doesn’t matter because they are ncaa tourney bound anyway… 17 years in a row. Did they have to win it this season in order to make it? Absolutely, and that is why they did. No conspiracy? How can you call it anything else?

So let’s talk about “next year” because that is what everyone is so used to doing around here anyway. It’s always next year that BYU is going to win the wcc or the wcc tournament. I have news for you… NO. As long as Gonzaga is in the wcc (and based on the scripted results I don’t think they plan on going anywhere) BYU isn’t winning anything except an occasional ncaa berth and some NIT games. So instead of talking about the lone peak boys and everything they did in high school and everything they are going to do “next year” and the “next year” after that, just sit back and enjoy watching America’s team and their patronizing players and coach who are all to quick to compliment the wcc and its’ member teams who fall in line every year for the Zags, to keep the streak alive.

It’s news, it’s money and it is all that matters. Gotta love that parity the wcc commissioner wants, in the worst way, to believe exists.When the wcc becomes a one bid league (and it is moving that direction) and Gonzaga keeps winning the tournament and bid every season, then maybe fans will figure out what is going on. When it matters, the game is called to favor Gonzaga, 17 years in a row doesn’t lie. Coincidences don’t happen like that… there is nothing like it anywhere in college basketball today… of course it’s rigged.

Jim H: Good points, the ten point hole does come into play in the WCC basketball tournament. I see your reasoning about how Utah feels against BYU, i.e. the Utes Coach K copping out of playing BYU in basketball in Provo next year. I also agree with your theory on the WCC, PAC 12, Big 12 vs. BYU. They don’t want BYU around and competing against them on a level playing field.

Jim H: Right on about the WCGC. I might add SMC in there too. It was very obvious about the non-calls on Sabonis in the men’s WCGC semi-finals. Sabonis drags his pivot foot on almost ebery one of his shots. Result in the semi-final against BYU, never once was a traveling call made against the foot dragging Sabonis on virtually almost all of his shots. In the women’s championship game, USF continuously push, pulled, and grabbed against the BYU women and rarely good called for it, especially the MVP from USF. Tehory or is it fact. I believe that it is fact.

And for txcoug1492 - how about this guy who is bigger than Sabonis of Sr. Przemek Karnowski (7-1, 287lb) last year. He would get away in the paint with a lot of pushing using his body and not get calls. We would hate to see Sabonis and Karnowski (if medical clearance) be back next year. I like our players coming coming together next year but I’m still not looking forward to wcc again. I agree with JimH. it is going to happen again just ask smc.

I think you are right, AND I think Hawkman is right, and I think the two points of view can co-exist. I think you are right in that BYU had a terrible inside game. I touted Davis and Aytes as game changers; Aytes disappointed everyone and made me look like an idiot. Davis started strong, but wilted late in the season when the going got tough, to the point he was often on the bench. Kaufusi showed flashes of athletic brilliance in nearly every game, but needs to refine his game and not look so awkward (which causes many of his fouls). I also agree with you that “Next year” WILL be different, because MIKA is different. Next year WE have the NBA bound big man. He had an NBA body and hops as a freshman. He is not a skinny 6’8" guy masquerading as a center or a 6’11" guy who can’t score. When you say “we did not get Sabonis in foul trouble–game over,” you are also right, but I agree with Hawks because I think the problem was we “could not” get Sabonis in foul trouble, because there was no way it was gonna happen that night. And game over.

I don’t know whether it’s an outright conspiracy, or just that GU is so entrenched as the WCC bread winner that the legend has taken on a life of its own. How else do you explain the conference POY being intentionally fouled–bear hugged–to prevent him getting the ball under the basket with 3.5 seconds left and the conference regular season title on the line, but no whistle? Or Sabonis carving through our bigs like a wrecking ball and somehow adjudged to have not fouled anyone, while the guys he’s wrestling with are hit with a dozen fouls? PS don’t get me wrong about Sabonis–I loved his dad as a Blazer and love Jr’s game as well. I agree with YOU that it was actually a near miracle that with such a flawed team we managed to hang with GU in 3 out of 3 games–a testament to KC’s toughness and Emery’s preternatural talent.

I think the WCC views BYU, it’s only football playing school, as an interloper who will desert them at the first opportunity–as well BYU should. So it in the WCC’s best interest to protect GU at all costs, because GU is the ONLY thing keeping the WCC even marginally relevant. No football? HS gyms? Really? The WCC commish is a liar when she says she wants parity. What she wants–and NEEDS–is for GU to make the NCAA tournament every year, no matter who stands in the way. GU will sell more “March madness” tee shirts; they will travel 5-10 thousand to any regional; they will keep the WCC barely relevant. Without GU’s success, the WCC is nothing. GU is still sold by ESPN as the darling of the “mid Majors,” even though with awesome seeds almost every year, last year was their first trip to the Sweet 16 in 10 years.

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