Cougar fans sometimes disagree on the process to achieve the same goal

I am a extremely strong BYU Cougar Football Fan. I do not aways agree with other extremely strong BYU Cougar Football Fans. That’s okay. We do not have to agree on which GPS route to take as long as our routes bring the Cougars the success, the respect, and the tools they ;need to be successful.

I do not like posting from other BYU Cougar fans, on other sites, that put down the Utah Utes to constantly point out their less than perfect successes. Yes, I know they do it to us also. I don’t like it in either direction.

I really do believe in the scriptures that say that we should
“Love our neighbor as our self”;

“Do onto others as we would have others do onto us”;

And not scripture, but good advice from our parents and society at large,
“If you can’t say something good about someone/something, don’t say anything at all”.

Having said all of this, I do wish that we have had the same success or better, that the Utah Utes have had, on the field, in the BCS bowls, getting into the Pac 12 conference and doing quite well within that conference.

I am not sure that ENVY is the correct word, but I do admire them for their success and I hope that we make the necessary changes in our demands that up until now, have not been flexible, and that positive changes can be made so that we do find success on the field, in the bowls and eventually in a Power 5 conference.

Other religious institutions, i.e. Boston College, Baylor, TCU, Notre Dame, to name a few, have found ways to be successful and still keep the commandments of the Lord, as well as the rules of the NCAA. So can BYU, if it will.

Yes I know their have been some pitfalls along the way for some of those institutions, i.e. SMU when they received their death penalty, Baylor a couple years ago, and BYU about 13 years ago in football and a few years later in basketball, but these have been the exception to the rule. Life has no guarantees that their will not be road blocks along the way that are not planned on.

I do not believe that we have to wait for the NCAA to make changes in their policies. Instead, I believe that BYU Must make changes in it’s policies.

The need is now. Never have we been as bad as we are now at what we once did well against those teams that we once dominated, but no longer do.

I think you’re vastly overstating the commitment to religious values and honor codes at Baylor and TCU. I don’t know about Boston College. I’m pretty sure Baylor abandoned its honor code and any semblance of connection to the Baptist Church. It’s Baptist in name only. Same with TCU; I think both had to for membership in the Big12 (same thing we struggled with with the pushback when our admittance was considered. Granted, I don’t think the Big12 was actually ever considering any expansion candidates, just trying to leverage a better TV deal).

I’m certain that one carrot/stick we will be forced to submit to for membership in a major conference would be abandoning the honor code.

Okay McKay…

You and others keep bringing up the Honor Code as if it is the sacred calf of BYU… That BYU can not change it’s honor code to become a better football team…

My question is “WHEN” did the HC become so vaunted and holy?

Because I want you to go back to the 1980’s and the times of Jim McMahon and other Non LDS players who did all sort of stuff and got away with it. Was not the HC followed in the time of Edwards?

The point I am making is that the enforcement of the HC was done because of Fred Skousen who felt that the athletes were allowed a different standard than other BYU students. So he cracked down hard on all sports… To a point that it became r"E"diculous and it swung the pendulum the opposite side where now students are given more room to repent and still stay in school.

So instead of abandoning the HC as your comment says, How about we administered the HC in a far more fair way across the board where everyone has the same punishment. Because we know from past stories that if a regular student did these things the players got booted for, they would be dealt with differently than the players.

Just my opinion, but I think we need to real back the punishment arm of the HC.

Without punishment there is no law. And if there is no law…well, you get it. Some say just let their bishops handle it. Well, not every player has a bishop because many aren’t members. And other churches don’t all see the eternal problem with some of the issues like marijuana or alcohol.

Also, the world won’t see that we deal with bad behavior because bishops shouldn’t blab the problem out. So, the suspensions are noticable to the world.

I know you think BYU is the Lord University, which is not the truth…It is a school owned by the church, nothing more.

Who said anything about doing away with the law?

If that is true, then what about the Law of Justice? The one that says you must pay for you own sins? Oh yea, The Lord showed mercy and provided a way for the law of Justice to fulfilled and yet, allow us to get passed it… Same with the HC and BYU… Right now, the general thought is only the law of justice matters when the HC is concerned.

That is why they changed the HC to deal with Rape… because the victim was punished for this crime while being a victim of the crime.

I know for a fact that some of Bateman Administration targeted the sports program and enforced the HC rules more harshly than other students. The general belief was the players got away with stuff (Which is probably right). Back in the day of Glen Tuckett (AD) he was able to walk into the President office at any time to discuss issues with the Sports teams, Bateman stopped that practice(which is why he was a short term University President).

All I saying is that I believe the Sports teams were investigated more harshly than regular students.

I personally believe we can live the honor code AND has fair and balanced investigation.

What other schools follow the fulness of the Gospel? The Brigham Young Universities are then the Lord’s School :nerd_face:

Southern Virginia
Heritage charter school here in Utah.

just to mention a few other schools that follow the gospel of Jesus Christ.

the last two are not funded by the church.

do you know the origin of the HC?

it was not created by the BOT, it was the brain child of President Wilkerson. he wanted BYU TO Live a different standard than the world in the 60’s…

up until the last years of Edwards it was not enforced as harshly as it is now in regards to the players…

so tell me what happened? Fred Skousen happened… he had a dislike for sports.

much like in the movie unnecessary roughness where the dean tried every way to destroy the football program.

Note that I wrote “THE Brigham Young UNIVERSITIES.” UNIVERSITIES!

But, thanks for the list anyways. So, what you are saying is before the formal institution of the HC, sinful behavior was allowed on campus. And there was no repercussions like expulsion from school. Or, did Skousen simply make the consequences uniform for all students?

[quote=“grasshopper, post:6, topic:7705”]
What other schools follow the fulness of the Gospel?

You have to take the full question Scott… You asked what other schools follow the fullness of the gospel, I mentioned two that are not owned by the church…

I will admit, I did not see the “ies” on University…

But I stand by my statement and the statement of the brethren that BYU is owned by the church, it is NOT the Lord’s university. To say it is, smacks of the time of the Pharisees…

An honor code probably wasn’t necessary before the 60s. I can understand why it was created then. It has been a different world since the 60s. The fact that the brethren haven’t seen fit to eliminate it would indicate it is needed. The enforcement of the code, unfortunately, is often subjective and not the same for all students across the board. Inequitable enforcement of the honor code is due to the weaknesses of men and does not invalidate the need for an honor code.

If all universities were run by churches that enforced similar honor codes we would have a vastly superior world. Children need boundaries and unfortunately most young people in this day and age are still children at the age of 18. Youth need a place where they can be educated in secular, as well as spiritual knowledge, in an environment that has strict boundaries. Unfortunately higher education for many young people has become a place where they party and get brainwashed with political correctness. BYU may not be “the Lord’s University” but it is a model that I wish every university copied regardless of its imperfections.

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Pharisees good grief! Chill brother…It’s only a game tonight :slight_smile:

Excellent post! You are correct about needing the HC during the 60’s when right and wrong really got blurry. And the Brethren still believe it’s necessary. I wonder if the Brethren control most of what goes on at BYU and the Church owns BYU, and the Lord owns the Church, then why is it not the Lord’s university?

No way the HC was established or continues without the First Presidency and the Twelve knew and agree with it The 60s were hairy but what is going on today is more hairier.

I agree completely! I think to many the HC seems too constructive. But, that’s because I think even members have become more worldly in the name of tolerance.

Roy and Aro, I agree with your points. No schools have such a Gospel laden HC as BYU, No where, even at Notre dame, Baylor, TCU, SMU and many others including the Military service academies. BYU is separate and distinct from other schools. No one can say that the U of U has an Honor Code any where near that of BYU. Almost all state institutions are extensions of child hoods and political correctness. The mighty Big 12 (Little Ten) and the PAC are fountains of liberal correctness. I could say that about all P-5 conferences and most private or so-called religious schools. At most, if not all P-5 schools and even G-5 schools political correctness reigns supreme. I would say that BYI, BYU-Hawaii and some Seventh Days Adentist schools and Jones University are the few that would have an HC anywhere near that of BYU.

Rubicon, grasshopper, aro, Roy, txcug1492, and Floyd Edwards. Thanks to each of you for your reply. I learn from each of you. I find some comments from some of you as hard to accept as my comments are hard for you to accept.

“They draw near to me with their words, but their hearts are far from me”. This is the feeling I get from some of the replies.

“Those that pray in public shall be rewarded by that public, but those that pray in the closet, shall be rewarded by me”
I sometimes feel that those that pray in public look down on those that pray in the closet.

“Without punishment, there is no law” This just does not sound Christ like to me. What ever happened to the commandment, “Repent, go, and sin no more.” Where is the punishment in the example that the Lord gave to us to follow?

While I learn from each of you, I tend to feel more in tune and agreement with Floyd Edwards. But thanks to all for your replies.

I think that when we put down Church schools like Baylor, like Boston College, like TCU, like ND, to name a few, and tell the world that nobody is as good as we are at honoring God with our honor code, we are displaying the same type of Arrogance that contributes greatly to Power Conferences not wanting to deal with us.

Rubicon says “I think you’re vastly overstating the commitment to religious values and honor codes at Baylor and TCU. I don’t know about Boston College. I’m pretty sure Baylor abandoned its honor code and any semblance of connection to the Baptist Church. It’s Baptist in name only. Same with TCU;”

I believe that when we feel that we are better than anyone else, that feeling keeps of from being better than anyone else.

Who says the HC is about honoring God? It’s about doing the very best to not look like we have the appearance of evil and allowing evil to be thought of as being good or okay. It helps in showing that universities don’t have to be PC and lower standards of common decency. I could go on but we should shun the appearance of evil. The 60’s forced changes and the Brethren agreed.

Please supply any evidence of an honor code for either Baylor or TCU. I’m not talking about academic honesty — all colleges have that. I’m talking about an honor code that regulates morality.

A big controversy right now is Notre Dame allowing abortifacents and contraceptives in its university health plan. While this isn’t an issue for Mormons (well, regular birth control, anyway), it is for observant Catholics. What does Notre Dame’s honor code say about extra-marital sex?

No, the BYU honor code is one-of-a-kind. There is not another school with anything like it.

And, there is no other Church that has the fulness of the Gospel as well has authority to administer any of the Lord’s ordinances. One and only of a kind:slight_smile:

I wonder if Pepperdine, Liberty or Oral Roberts have morality HC?