I am 100% in favor of the hire of Jeff Grime

I am 100% in favor of the hire of Jeff Grimes to be on the BYU Cougar Football team, and until the LDS Church owned University, BYU, becomes committed to Excellence with their Football team , I believe he is among the best that BYU can get and I am grateful to Grimes, for coming to us.

As said, over and over again by Andy Kartchner, Big Bro and brother, Aaron (a.k.a. Little Bro), Sports Bros Podcast, and by others in KSL, Desert News, Provo Herald, and Salt Lake Tribune, (at one time or another) ,
( I paraphase) that commitment to excellence for the Football team is not there.

(Paraphrase), when they say, BYU will never pay the dollars for a top notch P5 type coach for HC, for OC, or for DC. BYU may do okay with the other assistant coaches, but we will not pay for the big boys at the big positions.

If we don’t want to pay for the coaches that can make us a significant P5 type team, than we should NOT talk about wanting to be a significant P5 type team. That smacks of Hypocracy to do so.

In the best world, we would have paid the necessary amount of money to have Grimes come to us as an Offensive Line Coach, and Running game coach, and we would have gone after a Nick Sabin, an Urban Myers or even a Peterson as the HC, and let them select the DC and assistant coaches they needed. (Yes that cost money)

If we want to compete vs P5 teams successfully, than we should be willing to pay for the coaches that are able to attract the athletes that are capable of being successful vs P5 teams.

We act like we are living in La La Land, to think that $1,000,000 per year HC can win vs $ 8,000,000 per year coaches; or $500,000 OC/DC vs $2,000,000 OC/DC or $200,000 Asst Coaches vs $500,000 Asst coaches.

To Put things in perspective:

What is the difference in revenue at BYU between a half full stadium for home games vs. a full stadium for home games.
Factor in all the venders selling their goods to a half full stadium vs a full stadium.

What is the difference in revenue between a $14,0000,000 to $17,000,000 bowl game and a $750,000 to $1,250,000. bowl game.

What is the difference in revenue between a $10,000,000. or less TV contract and a $25,000,000. or more TV contract.

I don’t want to hear about tithing not paying for coaching, anymore than I would want to hear about tithing paying for partial ownership in the CocoCola Company or for Rail Roads, or for TV Networks, or for Radio Stations, or for News Papers, or for Department Stores, or for any of the other many businesses that the Church owns.

The one thing that all above have in common is that they are all money making businesses or the Church would not have invested in them.

We are hypocrites when we suggest that our reason for not reaching the highest level we can in football is because of the bias against us by others. We create our own problems with our own actions or lack there of. That’s my opinion.

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I admit I was surprised we got him. It seems a little out of the norm for us.

To your point about hypocrisy. It is frustrating to have the program stipulate certain goals and then make irrational decisions that don’t move us towards those goals.

-If we want P5 respect, you need P5 pay.
-If we want to win National championships (looking at you bronco) then we have to use strategies that actually give us a chance to beat the best teams on our schedule as underdogs.
-If we want to dominate the trenches we have to be able to recruit NFL caliber players (that’s our current dilemma)

So either you have to change what you’re doing to modify the situation or you have to change your goal. Lying about it to us the fans, or to themselves, is counterproductive in the long run even if it sells tickets now. So, what’s the real goal? And what are we willing to do about our situation? In my mind, 10 years from now, the ideal situation is that BYU would be:

-competing in and winning bowl games like one of the lower new years six bowls once ever 10-15 years, or similar to what Boise St has done, which is actually much better than that.
-At least be competitive in every game
-average 10 wins
-Establish and sell an identity

I view that as our ceiling in the current system, our highest level of play. I think it’s possible if not likely if we adapt to certain reality. If we don’t want to adapt to those realities, then I recommend changing the stated goal to something else. But there are many ways we could go about attacking these goals…

From the article I read, Grimes is taking a pay cut to become an OC, so I am not so sure the Church ponied up the $$$$ to get Grimes…

Grimes made 550,000 at LSU this year without counting the bonuses… I doubt BYU will pay that…

Well, does it mean we have to sell our souls to be P5? We know those schools break many of the rules and the NCAA turns their backs.

May I remind a few of you that BYU has won a National championship and been in the top 10 many times without paying huge saleries. We also weren’t recruiting 4 and 5 star players either. I don’t think it’s all about the money.

I think Grimes knows he’s stuck at LSU with nowhere to go. This is his opportunity to get play calling experience so in the future he may seek a head coaching job. Or, maybe he’s coming so that he’s away from close family to join the Church :wink:

You make several solid points, but your question is the most interesting.

I vote no to selling our soul if that’s what it comes down to. I’d rather the program step back than step down. That said, it may not be necessary.

I made no comment on recruiting 4 or 5 star players to reach the goals I stipulated, just that if we want to dominate the trenches it will require NFL lineman to beat the better teams on our schedule. There is no one perfect strategy, just the goal and the situation.

We have been highly ranked. But I didn’t make any comment on that either, though I think we would need to be highly ranked to make a lower tier NY6 bowl. We did win a championship (with an underdog strategy mind you) but I have my doubts on whether that’s possible now in the current format. I didn’t say we had to pay a P5 salary to achieve the goals I stipulated. I said that in order to get P5 respect (which I should say means to me getting into a P5 conference) then we need to pay for a P5 coach. We don’t necessarily have to do that.

All I’m saying here is: stipulate where you envision the program in 10 years as a best cast scenario and what you would have to do to get there.

My goal is: NY6 game (1/10years at least), 10 win average, Identity, Competitive
I didn’t actually make any statements about how we could get there. That gets into the weeds of conference reallignments, scheduling, salary, recruiting etc. I thought focusing the conversation on a single question would be more fruitful.

They system is rigged against us and others like us, unless they can string together three really good years (almost impossible with our front-loaded schedules).

Detmer’s Heisman was set up by his previous two years (including the late season heroics as a freshman). His junior year alone would not have won. Similarly, the 1983 national championship was set up by the near miss of 1982 (only a loss to Baylor), plus the previous other years. Going undefeated (especially after this year) wouldn’t put us in the playoffs. But, going 11-1 for a couple of years and then going undefeated probably would.

Can you imagine the outrage by those who have sought to exclude the non-elites if somehow they were forced into letting us in at the expense of SEC, B1G, or Big12 teams?

Most comments have been good and others a little shallow. I didn’t read anywhere that we had to sell our souls to become a P5 school and comparing what happened 20-30 years ago to the way things are today are ridiculous. Coaching and talent. An average coach can do well with great talent, but it takes a great coach to do well with average talent. It’s always been that way. And then you get a great coach with great talent and then you get the elite teams in the country. BYU will probably never reach the elite in this day and age, because the deck is stacked against them. It’s probably going to take great coaching and good talent-notice I said good-not great-good BYU to be competitive WITH THE SCHEDULES they have been playing lately. This probably means athletic quarterbacks that can run as well as throw. Innovative defensive coordinators that run sophisticated blitzing defenses. There is no room for sentimental emotions involving former players turned coaches and BYU needs to ultimately get the best for their money because the money won’t compare with top flight programs.

Sun Dance,

There is so much that you say that I totally agree with while there are spots here and there that I really disagree with.
" because the deck is stacked against them." Sundance I believe that we, the Church and the University and possible the fan base are the only ones that stack the deck against us.

The Universities that are fully committed to their football programs, Church owned, state owned, or privately owned, are the P5 schools that do well in the best conferences. Those of us that do not put our money where our mouth is, do not do as well. We can not blame anyone but ourselves for this.

" I didn’t read anywhere that we had to sell our souls to become a P5 school and comparing what happened 20-30 years ago to the way things are today are ridiculous. Coaching and talent."

I do not hear anyone comparing today with 20-30 years ago.

I don’t think that being fully committed to any Church Project, be in investing in Rail Roads, back in the day,
or department stores which we recently divested from, or investing in CocaCola Company 62 years ago for less than a year, but possible back into the company now, or Newspapers, Radio Stations, TV Networks, or Football is selling our souls. Instead, it is good business. I don’t see any one of the above as being more or less holy than any of the others.

I do see football as more enjoyable to more people than most of the other investments.

I do understand what you are saying regarding coaching and talent and how it may or may not relate to each other.

I think the bottom line is that if we want to attract the very best talent, we must have the coaches that can attract the very best recruits. We must have coaches that will give the recruits the confidence to believe that these coaches can get them into the next level which is the NFL.

While a coach coming up from a FCS conference team, no matter how great he may be, will not attract the quality players which we need to compete at the P5 level.

For many, not me, the group may rather us be in a FCS conference selling tickets at $15.00 per seat, and winning a decent amount of our games that probably won’t be seen on TV. At the Hawaii game, with more than half of the stadium empty, they were trying to sell tickets at half price, but still, the game was not important enough at any price for the people to want to come and see.

I have much, much more to say but won’t unless you ask.


Are you sure that “The system is rigged against us and others like us”, I don’t think so. I think that the Universities that are fully committed to excellence in their football program, by putting their money where their mouth is, are those P5 Universities that excell in the P5 copnferencs. Those Universities that talk the talk, and TRY to walk the walk, without being fully committed to the program with the money to back up the talk and to back up with the walk, are intentionally
relevating the University to medeocracy with the non committed financial support needed to compete. So no, the system is not rigged agains us, but instead, we are not committed to do what all the others have to do, and that is to spend the money it takes to be relevant. We can not blame anyone but ourselves if we choose not to compete

Rubcon and Clausewitz,

I in no way want to argue or find fault. I do have a real deficit in understaning the majority mentality that seems so foreign to my minority mentality.

This is what I do not understand:

Why is greatness in football equated with losing one’s soul?
I see it as an accomplishment in doing all possible to be as good as we can possible be.

Why is it okay to invest in all the companies that we invest in and in all the departments at the University that we invest in but it is not okay to invest in the Athletic Department that already makes more money than any other department.

A career in the MBA or a career in the NFL will pay more money to an athlete in 5 years than he could makeworking at any other major he could take at BYU working 35-40 years.

Why is it okay to inveest in Rail Roads back in the day, and in depaertment stores, and in Newspapers, Radio Stations,
TV Networks and the Coca Cola Company, but it is not okay to invest in the Athletic Department at our school particularly in Football and Basketball where the returns on the invest will be far greater than the returns from any ohther department.

I am not tring to sell my idea. I am trying to under stand yours which I acknowledge is with the majority of the thinking while mine hardly ranks high enough to be called the minority of thinking.

Don’t get mad, just explain.

Oh, I am so sick of hearing pepople say that if we do something to exceed, that means we will be selling our souls.

If we do something good, that means we must be doing something against Church standards.

If we want excellence, that means that we are choosing football over the Church mission!!!

I just don’t understand why we see ourseves so good and so holy that we would never stoop to doing anything to make ourselves successful. I grew up believing that success was a virtue.

Since when is paying a competative salary sinful and paying less than a competative salary virtuous?

Since when is it better to try to make 3 star players out of 0,1,2 star players, than to take 4-5 star players and develop them into top talent for the MBA and or NFL?

Why is it better to blame others for our unwillingness to do what it takes to be successful, by calling those that have paid their dues and are succesful the bad guys that have stacked the deck against us, or those other bad guys that are bias against us…

When will we start taking responsibility for our own actions and stop blaming others for our lack of success.

If we want the easy way out and join a FCS conference where we won’t need to make any compromises, or pay a competative wage, or be comfortablr hiring any coach that will work for less, than so be it, but don’t blame others for the fact that we are not willing to do what it takes to be as successful as we say we want to be.


This post of yours "If we want P5 respect, you need P5 pay.

"-If we want to win National championships (looking at you bronco) then we have to use strategies that actually give us a
chance to beat the best teams on our schedule as underdogs.

“-If we want to dominate the trenches we have to be able to recruit NFL caliber players (that’s our current dilemma)”

Not only the quotes above, but this entire posting of yours is exactly what I have been trying to say. I feel now, that we are
100% on the same page.

I hate blaming others for what we are not willing to do. If we do not want to do something, we should say that we are not willing to make this compromise so therefore, we will not be joining your conference. It is silly to say they stacked the deck against us. It is silly to say they are bias against us.

The fact is, if we played by the rules while living my our own standards, and said nothing to offend others that have their own values, that may or may not be different from our own, than there would be no bias against us. When we do otherwise, it is us that creates the bias against us.

When everyone pays their coaches what they pay them, and by doing so, they attract the top athletes, and by paying their dues, they are successful members of a successful conference. If we choose not to pay the competative prices to get the best coaches that get the best athletes, that makes our team less successful and in a less successful conference, than it us us, that chose to stack the deck against ourselves, (for any reason) and it is not the successful that paid their dues that stacked the deck against us.

Say it like it is. We choose not to be competative. (Period) No excuses.

Ever see the movie “■■■■ Yankees?” Trying to be like someone else that is based on money is really dangerous. Be careful what you wish for?

I’m not nailing down a plan, in fact, we should remain open-minded and shift to changing and unpredictable situations. The goal should be constant, it’s clear in my mind, and there are many ways to do it.

@grasshopper Throwing money around depends on the goal, specifically the Church’s goal for the program? There are highly respected, non-competitive programs. (The service academies) They establish identities and hold true to it. If that’s the goal, then change the plan. But if it’s being seen as successful on the field, then increasing budgets is reasonable investing. Alternatively, taking chances on potentially brilliant coaches could work if you eventually pay to keep them.

My key agreement with @Ronald_Uharriet is the program should clarify goals and set a rational course to get there.

For almost 30 years now I’ve been paying my tithing via donations in kind by transferring stock from my brokerage account to the Church’s account. I am working hard to pick winners so the church will have more money to hire better coaches. I’m tryin’ here already…

I’m VERY happy we got Grimes. I would rather have him or Simmons–proven position coaches and recruiters from perennial top 10 power programs–than some guy the recruits won’t believe in. Hoping to see a few other coaches gone soon.

I was in Hawaii and had access to free tickets to the game, but chose not to go. I love BYU football, but this season was just a bad, bad product.

Had the 37 injured starters, 2nd string, 3rd string…in key positions not been injured, would the product still been bad, bad and bad?
If Ty were the OC next year, with healthy players, would the product still be bad?

Do the service academies have the highest paid coaches and top 10 teams? I think not. Are they P5? Nope…

Correction Hopper, Navy stepped in and paid Ken about 75% more money than Sitake is getting per season. Don’t know about Air Force or Army

Is that anywhere near what P5 coaches earn? I think not…