how did Lavell team beat Miami? I know everyone think Detmer was a star recruit, when in fact, Detmer did not have many offers. He came to BYU with his dad and talked Lavell into giving him a scholorship.
I like the concept that Lavell had “We can not recruit the star athletes, so we need to develop a scheme that can overcome talent”
grasshopper,
"I see a 10 - 2 season. The WR could be fantastic this year. D will be much better. Offense too! "
Awe yes, I remember it well, each and every year for the past 12 seasons.
Ronald,
I am not judging a player intelligence, my wife teaches and I have a son that does not learn by conventional means.
In the current academic standards, Athletes must score a certain ACT score and have a certain GPA in High School. That is what I mean by some players are not good students, they have a hard time meeting the standards expected.
Getting into a University, any University is difficult, they set the bar high to eliminate certain students.
Hope that helps.
aro,
“If they could move Lavell Edwards Stadium and the Marriott Center to BYU-I then I am with you.”
It would be much less expensive, to just move the Academic Standards to BYU-I. Leave Lavell Edwards Stadium and the Marriott Center in Provo and let the best athletes we can get play ball in Provo.
Floyd,
I always respect you and your wisdom, even when our points of view clash from time to time. I thank you again for your intelligent
and respectful disagreements and well as for those times that you have backed me up against others that like to disagree.
I have taught both general education as well as special education, from grades 3 though high school and I have also taught school on the State University System and post graduate school on the University level.
I have more often than not, been in the minority opinion that all students should be able to succeed in the areas that they are most likely to achieve in. Too often, we keep students from potential success because we block their opportunities just because they do not test well or achieve well in academic settings. It is my minority opinion, that intelligence can be found in non academic settings and for those that do not do well with testing.
I think we do more harm than good, by not allowing athletes to develop their skills because they are not good in academics and/or testing.
Floyd,
“I believe the final ranking is 71st. which would be the highest in Sitake timeframe.”
Reality Check:
130 teams in Division 1 Football.
Approximately 65 for P5 teams (Some exceptions)
Approximately 65 for G5 teams (Some exceptions).
We want to be identified as an Independant P5 team looking for A Home in a P5 conference.
We should not be less than 65 in or ranking and most likly, 50 to be really considered a P5 Independent wanting to be gobbled up by a P5 conference.
At best, in reality, with all of our current restrictions, we are performing in all areas from University support to coaching, to playing the game on the field, like an upper 1/3 of a G5 conference team.
Is all of our talk about wanting to get into a P5 conference just talk with no real intentions? If not, why do we keep bragging about all the roadblocks we set up to keep us from getting there?
Why do the majority of our fans defend the status quo when the status quo for the past dozen years have not worked.
I was referring to your idea that football has something to do with the work James was referring to. In their day, they had a form of soccer game they played and I doubt James was referring to a game.
I apparently took an IQ test in the 5th grade because I was failing and my teacher wanted to make a point. I scored on that one 120. My father, a teacher, said I could learn anything I wanted and be successful even though not a genius. He said the same of “C” students as well. When students had lower than a C average he would look for other issues like hearing, seeing or family situations for a reason rather than calling them educatably retarded. Even then, he would take more time with them to get them through successfully. That’s elementary, middle school and high school. College is a weeding out place of higher learning. If a person is weeded out then they have to find a place to catch up. Many of great athletes have taken the Junior College route like OJ Simpson did. I think that was a major reason I, as a in-member, got into BYU.
I also know that many of D students become A and B students once they get out of high school and have a purpose to study and get good grades. I’ve seen it many times. So, you are correct about grades and tests not being everything when it comes to acceptance to a university. But, there has to be some measuring stick or universities would be a real mess. Is the ability to play football or basketball a measuring stick? How about how much money parents can give to a university (Back to School)? So, what is the answer that is fair to the non-athletic student?
IQ tests are not measuring native IQ, they measure, generally, the ability to be successful in academic settings. Academic grades in high or Jr. colleges are measures, in general, of a person’s ability to function academically at the university level. BYU purposefully put the standards for admission really high for a reason. That reason is to cut down on the SCORES of thousands of kids that want to attend BYU. If BYU put the admission standards down, they (meaning some of the humans that run BYU) would have the very awesome responsibility of deciding which students with a GPA of 3.0 (for example) or C grades (for example) got in and which students do not get in. So then grades, GPA and other measures are put higher so that human beings don’t have to make such difficult decisions. If BYU accepted every student that wanted to attend the university, the student body would be well over 100,000 strong and thus unmanageable. I, with 2 PhDs, could not get admitted to BYU these days with my record of having a 2.65 GPA after my first 2 years at a previous university.
And I think I said as much that it’s used to keep the student population down that are wanting to apply. However, as stated, a 4.0 from one high school is not necessarily equal to a 4.0 from another. There are are methods of deciding as well. But, it’s another reason for other BYU schools. Perhaps it would be fair to lower standards for athletes at BYU Provo since it is a sports program school. Other BYU schools could be a higher standard of acceptance. Once BYU Provo is filled up then go for the others.
I doubt I could get in now as well. However, with my Jewish background they might let me get in 
GRASSHOPPER,
“I apparently took an IQ test in the 5th grade because I was failing and my teacher wanted to make a point. I scored on that one 120.”
I think this is one of your better post. I like it. Thank you.
When I was going to college, in the 1950’s, I took a class called
" Psychological and Sociological Foundations of Education".
Speaking of those, that were labeled at that time, as Educational
Mentally Retarded, (EMR), (now called Mentally Challenged),we were taught that the Garden Variety of the EMR was with an I.Q Range of 55-75 approximately.
Below 55 would not be educable, but instead, Trainable.(TMR).
We were taught that I.Q. was established as being somewhere between the IQ range of the father and the mother with a magnet pull towards 100. (Exceptions would be accident or illness).
We were taught that IQ may change up and down as much as 10 points, depending on our environment and opportunities or lack there of, but never more than 10 points was possible in IQ change regardless of what was or was not done to try to create a change.
We found that this is all wrong. Albert Einstein, was a very poor student. The Larry P case, (lawsuit), proved that IQ scores prove that they are not accurate enough to determine a persons intelligence.
There was a case where a student took an extensive testing period for 5 days @ 8 hours per day for a total of 40 hours measuring all aspects of intelligence. He scored 68. (Middle of EMR range).
Ten years later, he had finished college, taught school for few years and scored 124 on the IQ test. This was totally impossible as taught 10 years earlier.
Servant or otherwise, if a person could be genius in sports, but a failure in testing and academics, should that person be kept from
being a success in sports because he is not academically inclined?
Why can’t we take a person where his/her strengths are, and develop that strength to his/her highest potential.
In California, I believe the University of California programs for schools like UCLA, and Cal Berkley, accept those in the top 13% range, while the State College System accepts students in the top
1/3 (33-1/3%)of the community and Community Colleges will accept anyone and everyone.
Perhaps, if all of our BYU Schools in (Provo, Idaho and Hawaii,) had good Sports Programs, than maybe BYU Provo, could have the 13% requirement, while Idaho has the 1/3% requirement and Hawaii could accept anyone and everyone.
It would be interesting to see which of the schools would produce the best sports programs.
FLOYD,
I was chairman of the Special Education Department in a High School in California.
We had a student, (Mentally challeged), that loved basketball.
He was always in the gym in PE clothing, shorts, tennis shoes etc, while the varsity team was working out. The team players loved him. The mentally challenged student rarely missed a 3 point shot. He was amazing. He wanted to play.
There was nothing in the school rules that said he could not play.
(School Doctrine). But the coaching (procedures), would not allow it. In the coaches mind, he was too much of a risk.
How sad.
Totally agree with you about IQs. I took one of those you can buy at Barnes & Nobles and scored 155. I did that mostly because I taught Geometry and many of the questions were on Geometry. Had I taken that my sophomore year I would have scored 68 too. But now I admit I’m a genius. You can see this in my logic and reasoning today 
While Physical Education is an acedemic study, I’m pretty sure football isn’t. Unless you want to dumb down a degree in Physical Education, I don’t think a degree in football will lead to a job for 99% of football players.
Provo of course:-)
When I was coaching in high school, there was a school who had a starting point guard that was obviously Down syndrome. He was really quick and a great shooter as well. Not so with most Down syndrome kids.
grasshopper:
“there has to be some measuring stick or universities would be a real mess.”
Instead of limiting the number of students, increase the size of the University.
Hypothetical Situation:
Make a medical school and law school, and Science Research School out of Ricks, “BYU Idaho” Let that entrance requirement be at 4.0 if you want.
Let BYU Hawaii be for Teachers, Social Workers, RN’S, MBA’s,
CPA’S and the like have an entrance admission of 3.5
Let BYU have a program for the Art, Music, Dance, Acting, and sports. Let the entrance be at 3.0
Let BYU have a trade school in Arizona, Nevada, OR CALIFORNIA. for Plumbing, electrical, carpentry, cabinet making, cement and block work, framing, roofing, handyman work, contractors. Have no entrance requirement.
Wow I could have gone to Hawaii for my CPA
Sr_ Burton,
This was not meant to be a put down to CPS’S. I have a son in law that is both a CPA and a Tax Attorney.
Everything is hypothetical. The intent is not to put one profession above another, but instead, find a way to be more inclusive over a broader spectrum of people. I believe that opportunities should be available to anyone that wants to improve themselves.
Didn’t take it as a put down. My older sister went to BYU-Hawaii. She actually blew it up for me as she did more surfing than studying-so I got BYU-Provo . I didn’t do any surfing but lots of skiing:wink: