Just trying to figure out what changed

I was looking at the Santa Clara pre-game issue from the sports info folks: specifically Coach Rose’s record.

It struck me that the 2011-12 year marked a turning point, especially for defensive performance, which has led to the lower overall record imo.
I started looking for the reasons.
WCC instead of MWC
Rice gone to UNLV
Carlino instead of Jimmer

The point guard spot hasn’t been a strength since Jimmer left. Carlino was legit but eventually got largely benched because of his inconsistency. His replacement KC is consistent but not as good a PG as either Jimmer or Carlino. I’m not trying to dis KC just think he’s much more a point forward or some such hybrid. He obviously does a decent job, but he doesn’t carry the team the way Jimmer or Jax or for that matter Carlino or Fischer can. I expect that Seljaas and Emery well the future does look bright.

WCC is much more a 3 point league. and the slower of foot guard lines byu tends to carry have not done so well. MWC and other major conference bball leagues tend to more balanced play that the Rose’s players can better exploit their strengths and don’t tend to the glaring weakness on the wings. Though it was interesting to see Belmont and CMU type teams in the mix pre-conference play this year. They were of course games much like the last few years outscore or lose.

Rice hasn’t done nearly as well yet at UNLV as I expected him too. Perhaps he’s simply a stand in in my mind for the early Dave Rose staffs. I do think it is interesting that as the Dave Rose raised coaches have come to dominate the staff instead of the new blood with new ideas and ways of doing things the record has suffered. Quincy Lewis may be a new prototype. A Rose protégé whose done well elsewhere who may be able to bring in outside ideas but still has enough of a Rose varnish to fit in with the cast.

In any event Rose’s teams still haven’t risen to the level of the pre-Jimmer teams since Jimmer left. Maybe Jimmer changed Rose? Maybe the taste of success, consecutive years of wins in the big dance and the NIT deep run, legitimated his approach too much for him or some of his staff’s approach to continue the learning required for a continued upward trajectory?

Is it safe to consider that maybe Rose has tried to mold his teams after the Jimmer group with one guy being the focal point and a few others chipping in once in awhile? Did he try the same tactic with Haws and now with KC and Fischer?

Now excuse me for suggesting it, but is it possible that they sometimes appear to be selfish on the court because Rose is expecting them to be Jimmer or Tyler? and they really aren’t cut out of the same scorer’s mentality those two were? I mean how else can you explain KC running the point and forcing his way to the basket over and over or Fischer shooting an inordinate number of shots whether he is on or not and forcing many of those shots?

Is it possible or is that what you might be alluding to?

Now you are getting it. KC and CF are merely following Rose’s directions in how they play. They aren’t being selfish. They are be obedient.

To my mind Tyler was much like KC.
Both really good players who will have extensive careers though probably in Europe at the top levels.
But neither of them has the fire or leadership or whatever the magic is that allows them to lift a team to superior performance.
They both perform(ed) superiorly, and that undoubtedly helps the team. But not lift the time to superior performance when the chips are down. Hence the last few years the losses have racked up in close games. Superior performance allows the team to stay close but nobody to lift the team over the hump.
Emery and Seljaas look like they might have that ability…I’d love to see Dastrup or some other big, Hamson maybe?, become the lifter of the team the way Hakeem did for the team Rose captained to the final four.

Nope, not obedient…

Still selfrish because there have been numerous occasions where an extra pass or a different decision would have resulted in a better outcome and they failed to execute.

The reason they failed is not from being “obedient” because they have as much responsibility to their team as they do themselves. The reason they failed is because of the focus on breaking records or filling the stat sheet. There are many examples I could point to… there is a difference between selfishness and obedience… if you look long enough you can find it.

I am not sure Jim… it seems to me he is trying to resurrect the offense of University Houston when Rose played there with Drexler and Akeem…

Because it does not look like defense is a main priority at times…

The players get on the court based on solely whether Rose says. KC and CF don’t care what Jim Hawks thinks is selfish. KC and CF care what Rose and their teammate think and want to see what happens on the court. See, young man, it’s only selfish if other players, not fans, think they are being selfish.
Now maybe Peter Arce got to play in front of you and he hogged the ball. So, because of your selfishness, you think other players think KC and CF are selfish. You would be completely wrong. The team members have already said they wanted to get them those records. So, because you are offended doesn’t mean they are selfish.

whoa, I want in this conversation.

Harold brings up great points when he talks about the Point being “Hijacked” and the defense heading southward.

The pedigree is there…Carlino, then KC. Both exceptional athletes who can do amazing things but both with GLARING problem areas. Carlino, the bipolar black hole who could carry a teamo or bury a team. He is killing it in the D leagues. Carlino was a true Point without the #1 rule of the point, “Team First”. so we loved but mostly hated him here at BYU.
KC, Not a true point, should be a finisher. But who on the current team can penetrate? So we are stuck. The stats keep piling up and his legend grows.

I will say that I believe that Elijah Bryant and TJ will repair the point for years, problem solved. I have seen EB play twice so I am basing my assumption on limited experience and what he did back East but TJ is the real deal. His BB skills are Elite. TJ could start for Duke. Done deal.

Now on to defense. While we have wondered out loud if Quinsy Lewis was having an impact on BYU, BYU has gone from south of #320 (last year) to #210 (this season) all while breaking in 2 Fr. starters. Answer: QL is changing the defensive culture at BYU. Great Hire.

Lastly, My latest theory (and Jim loves to have fun with it) is that when the lone peak boys take over…Mica @ Center, Emery @ shooting guard, and TJ @ point… Mix in a Y Childs @ power forward and a Dahstrup; BYU will have the athlete to defend as well a score with the best. This will be the closest to a Duke type team BYU has since Mel Hutchins and his crew and Ainge, Roberts, Trumbo, Etc…

Coach Rose loves Elijah Bryant.

next year EB and Emery leading the charge on the guard line looks to be pretty positive. I haven’t seen TJ. But I’ve never seen a bad thing about him.
so TJ, EB, and Emery. short fast talented and KD, Aytes, Kaufusi, Hamson, Mika, will Dahstrup be back? Childs…if Coach Rose licking his chops means anything well defense will be better just on talent. Offense will be the best in the Rose era,…

Still I don’t think the talent level from the Jimmer era dropped off appreciably just the results…the toughness Rose wanted from the team last year never materialized…Emery’s got it. maybe it will rub off… and the close games will start falling prey to the Cougars

I have a problem when people say point guards aren’t suppose to score first. Then why do we see all these penetrating first guards with their tear drop shots in college and the pros? According to you and Hawks Steph Curry is a selfish ball hog. Carlino was asked to penetrate and if he had a shot take it. When he did pass half the time players couldn’t catch the pass or make the wide open shot except for Haws. KC is asked to do the same thing and he gets hammered by the fans.
I’m with you that I think Chatman should be at the point and KC at the 3 getting the ball on the block or in the paint. But, in a Rose offense, the 3 guard is a shooting guard and KC still has no shot outside 2 feet. So, KC is the point because of this.
As far as Emery, Seljass or Fischer at the 2 guard, go with the experience. Emery has been up and down and lately mostly down with his outside shooting. Seljass has shot lights out coming off the bench. We need that! Next year should be fun and I hope the basketball players can enjoy the competition for play time as a positive.

Have a seat SG… this is going to be brutal.

First off, neither one of us has ever said anything close to this. Second, Golden State is 33-2. If BYU were 14-1 or 13-2 nobody would be saying a thing about “selfish” ball. Obviously, you still don’t get it or why it might be a problem. I could say more but what would be the point? You don’t read for comprehension, you just manipulate what others say and use it to make your own point. That’s bogus.

How do you know this? You don’t… and it isn’t based on any observations because he didn’t penetrate all that much

LOLOLOL!!! Kc has not shot outside 2 feet and because of that he is the point? How do you get from point A to point B with that? You can’t make two unrelated statements and connect them with a bunch of nonsense. They don’t go together.

What competition? You mean Chatman trying to get more than 5 min. a game? He played 12 minutes in a game recently and scored 8 pts., had some assists and rebounds and barely played the next game. KC and Fischer routinely play 35+ minutes a game, regardless of how well they are actually playing. The result is winning 2 out of every 3 games… and overall underperforming as a TEAM. This team is better than 10-5 and everyone knows it. So what is the problem? Most of us see it and comment on it, only to have you disagree and say something superficial like “they need to make their shots” really? how insightful… You disagree that anybody on the team might be trying to do more than they are capable of (selfish) or that the team plays bad defense (leaves their feet, doesn’t help out, etc.) etc.

I’m sorry, but you are wrong. They can play better TEAM defense and they can play better TEAM offense. St. Mary’s seems to have figured it out with an entirely NEW group of players and less talent than BYU has. Nothing worse than talent being utilized in the wrong way… look at BYU’s record vs. St Mary’s and Gonzaga since entering the WCC. Is it because they have less talent and skill or playing ability? or is it because they have failed to maximize that talent and skill? Everyone knows it is the latter… I’m tired of watching KC play point guard for NO good reason and Fischer when he is cold, continuing to fire up shots when he can’t hit the broad side of a barn (and the end result is a loss). He has been more consistent lately, but I would like to see a few more intentional assists on his part. Why? because that is what will translate to more wins in the end. It is a proven way and method, but some players never get it.

.You liked Carlino, so did I and others, but he was routinely out of control and as a result, selfish in his own right. It cost the team on several occasions… forcing shots, flying around out of control, etc and instead of doing other things, he would force it resulting in turnovers, poor team play and yes, losses. That is all for now…

the point runs the team by definition that means he looks to get the other 4 players involved. Scott brings up Stef. Curry (who I think is the greatest player in the world right now) so let’s talk about Curry (I know his dad, he hunts here in Utah)
Curry can hit any shot on the floor. He can break any guys ankles to get an open shot. Curry also has two elite guys on his team that can hit any shot at any time, Clay Thompson and Green, he also has the best 6th man on the planet, Egwadalla. Curry because he shoots 50% from the NBA 3 should be shooting ALL THE TIME, but he passes 1/2 the time to a trusted teammate who knocks down the open look or GOES RigHT BACK to Curry.

Now let’s look at the Black Mamba, Kobe. He needed Shack to win titles. Shack leaves and black hole, Kobe can’t win anymore. Why? Kobe does not include his teammates.

King James…includes his teammates. wins titles and most likely would have won last year if Love and Veragao and Kyrie Irving hadn’t been injured. (Irving can carry a team like Curry). Cavaliers and Golden State will meet in the final and guess who wins this year?

Stockton was the best point to ever play according to Magic Johnson (my pick for best point guard of all time) Stockton has the most assists in NBA history…and guess who has the most makes of 3s in Jazz history? Stockton, the kid that teams would sag off of and dare to make a 15 footer because he came into the league without an outside shot. Stockton became an elite shooter over time.

Back to KC. He is an Elite college player but he can’t make a outside shot so until he does…he will never play in the NBA. Where would I put KC in BYU history? Because of his rebounding and all around game, top 10 for sure, top 5 maybe but he is no Ainge.

You make my case. If KC had more consistent shooters to pass to he’d be number 1. KC doesn’t even though CF, Emery and others can get hot. When they do he feeds them the ball a lot. If they aren’t hitting he’s going to take it to the basket just like those you mentioned. He’s not selfish. He’s doing his job.

JH:Nothing worse than talent being utilized in the wrong way…
SG: the topic is are these two players selfish, you answered this with this statement during your long humorous rant :smile:
Rose is the coach making all these decisions. He’s allowing the players to play this way and this means he is telling them to play this way. Therefore, to play, they have to keep doing what they are doing no matter if Jim Hawks calls them selfish. Therefore, they aren’t selfish. They are obedient.

Through 15 games KC has 110 assists this year, an impressive number…

All other players have 130 total. Last year BYU was in the top 5 in assists the whole year. This year 59th. Since joining the WCC they’ve been consistently in the top in the nation. Not this year. Even though they are on a current 50% or so per game shooting streak.

That is part of what is happening this year…but not what has changed since WCC instead of MWC.

And we know shooting percentage off assist attempts is down. Your example of stats is what is known as manipulation of stats to benefit your stance. I would say KC does a good example of putting others in a position to score than the rest of the team members.

Harold: I was impressed by your post and to me your knowledge of Coach Rose and BYU basketball. One of my opinions, besides BYU not getting as good players, is that perhaps Coach Rose has past his prime and is not able to adjust to changing times and play. I do also believe that the WCC or what I call the WC-Gonzaga/St. Mary’s Conference protects those two WCC powers at the cost of the other eight teams in the conference. I may be and probably am misguided. But Coach Rose’s teams have been going down since we had the Jimmer. To me the BYU women’s coach seems to have more knowledge and can change up in situations better than Rose. I personally like Coach Rose as a man and a representative of the Church. But I feel like he may have lost his mojo. I know that he wanted to go to Wake Forest but his wife and family, I understand vetoed that opportunity.

Jim H: Good questions on Harold’s post. I can see a little of what you are saying. To me, the current BYU teams have some big men but their either don’t have the talent or haven’t developed enough yet to dominate on the boards and/or Coach Rose and his staff haven’t coached them up enough to be dominate up front.

SG: If KC and CF are merely following Rose’s directions perhaps maybe Rose is misguided, or as I suggest in response to Harold and Jim H that Rose might have peaked and lost his mojo as a winning coach. I may be spoiled as a fan, but when I went to BYU we had Stan Watts as the HC and he won WAC titles and BYU was getting into the NCAA when only sixteen teams made the Big Dance. This 64 to 68 teams in the NCAA is very much like the 40 bowl games that we now have in football, where even 5 and 7 teams “qualify” for a bowl.

The growth in the number of bball teams playing in division 1 has far outpaced the number of births in the NCAA tournament.
or to put it differently
Though Stan Watts earned a place in the basketball hall of fame and cougarfan hearts, putting teams into the big dance was a considerably easier task for him than Rose now faces.
And if the next few years pan out the way I think Rose thinks they will. He’ll get his teams back to the final four and maybe even that title he never got his undergrad years with phi slama jamma. That would definitely put him in the cougarfan hall of fame and perhaps even have him joining stan watts…who definitely never had the run of tournament teams Rose has had but still got to the HoF.