[quote=“thawk, post:36, topic:8068”]
Ok Floyd, I am willing to upgrade your season ticket package at my expense if Tanner is the starting QB and we win against UW, UofU, BSU, USU and NI! [/quote]
Sorry, but i don’t have season tickets because it interferes with my Temple Calling on Saturday night. Nice for you to offer though.
I think Tanner can do it, I think Grimes is one of the best offensive coaches to get the most out of BYU players, of which he did not recruit very many of them. Most of these guys were under Bronco and Anae.
I would think this, but you have been negative about Tanner long before the season started and in my opinion have not given him a chance to prove one way or the other.
Roderick mentioned all the negative comments about Tanner and said “They don’t know what they are talking about”. He then went on to say that yes, Tanner has made mistakes, some of them bone headed ones, but he needed more players to “Step up”, it is not all on Tanner.
Like I said, we have no “Go to” player who catches the ball no matter how it is thrown.
I won’t reply to any one post but there are a whole lot of posts that don’t add up for me. Those who keep harping on the 89 yards passing against Wisconsin don’t make any sense at all. This isn’t the first time something like that happened. In 96 I was at a building in Oklahoma City watching a game on satellite over the old Blue and White network (remember those days). BYU was playing Rice who actually had a good team that year. BYU shut them out something like 44-0 and hardly threw the ball at all. I remember a spectator moaning the whole game about how they weren’t passing the ball and I wondered what he was thinking. If what you are doing works you don’t stop doing and do something else until it quits working. I don’t know if they even had 100 yards rushing that day. They were running all over Rice. A few weeks later they trounced Utah in Salt Lake and rushed for well over 300 yards and passed for less than 100. Utah never stopped the run so BYU kept running McKenzie and Jenkins. Sarkisian was the QB that year and had great stats. I don’t give a rat’s behind whether you beat somebody running or passing. Just win the game. Sometimes it is better for the QB to be a game manager.
As for Mangum he obviously has the talent. He proved it in 2015. He came out of high school highly rated and actually out performed Jameis Winston in some camps. After 2015 everybody was saying how he was going to be one of the greats and he deserved to start in 2016 and people couldn’t wait for 2017. I’ll bet a lot of you guys were saying that before the start of last season. Last year was a train wreck and Tanner Mangum was only a small part of it. I don’t remember anybody saying he couldn’t throw the long pass in 2015. I watched most of the games in 2015 and people like to say his reputation was built on two passes and that is garbage. I never got the impression he couldn’t throw the long ball and I remember him throwing downfield quite well on a number of occasions. In the games where he couldn’t it was usually due to his receivers being over matched by better DBs. He is not a runner but neither is he immobile. He does well scrambling to avoid sacks to find a receiver or throw the ball away. I know what my eyes tell me. He is definitely not John Walsh who probably ran about a 5.5 forty…I think he just needs to get the 2015 confidence back. Maybe he will have some big games against non power 5 teams and we will see much better stats and a return of his confidence to throw the longer pass.
The stat quoted by one poster that no top 25 team in the last 20 year had averaged less than 175 yards a game seems is “fake stat” . I don’t know what the source was for that stat but it didn’t take me long searching Football Reference to realize that was a fake stat. West Virginia in 2005 and 2006 was 12-1 & 11-2 and averaged well below 175 both years. Some of the others were Nebraska 1999-2001, Alabama in 2008, Georgia Tech in 2014, Navy 2015, and Wisconsin 2014. I am sure there are others I could find if I looked some more. I looked at schools whose staple was the run and not all of those were option teams either. Check Football Reference and do a little research for about 15 minutes. When people pull stats out of their butt to make an argument I will check. I knew the stat was phony before I even looked just based on my memory of what teams had been successful over the years without running up impressive passing stats in terms of yardage per game.
AND Yet he threw for 89 yards (which you and others keep reminding me about) and beat the #6 team in the country by playing smash mouth football.
I keep telling you this, The pass happy days of BYU glory years is not happening any more. Kalani and Grime wants our team to be a physically punishing, smash mouth football team.
Smash mouth football : “Football that is played, downhill, hard nosed, physical, and running hard and staying behind my pads on first contact.”
So stop thinking BYU is going to be “Pass Happy” like you want.
I agree with you but I think Mangum can normally throw for 200-250 yards per game in the system BYU is currently using and that would be plenty in most cases. It looks like Grimes philosophy is take what the defense gives you and don’t force things. I think under the right circumstances given the right opponent BYU can still throw the ball well but not like in the 80s and 90s, or even in the Beck and Hall years. It appears the pass happy days are over.
I remember those games well. The difference is that we were running them to death, so why throw it? It was how it has been for us more recently with Utah at times (like the Jake Heaps game): run, run, reindeer, because they can’t stop it. It was a great feeling, especially against Utah!
This Wisconsin game was not like that. We barely won, and were not dominating the game like against Utah or Rice. They could have tied on the field goal. If not for the halfback pass for a touchdown, we would have lost.
Sarkisian could throw for 400-500 yards, if needed. That’s the difference. Mangum can’t. Not even if needed. Especially if needed.
I’m readjusting my expectations, given how things are now. If the intent of Sitake and Grimes is really to resurrect Barry Switzer/Tom Osborne style three yards and a cloud of dust “smashmout” football, then we’re in trouble long term. We’ll go down to division 2 at some point, then.
It isn’t that I miss the pass (though there’s some truth to that). I would have embrace the triple option last year to just get some first downs and points. We’re not going to be able to consistently get first downs with our newly-minted “smashmouth” football approach. We benefited greatly from Wisconsin looking past us and taking us for granted. That isn’t going to happen again.
My point is that you don’t need 200+ passing yards every game to win. Sometimes you might need 200+ and Mangum can do that, and has done that. From what I saw of the Wisconsin game Wisconsin did a good job in coverage so BYU used the run game and ran the ball well. I could see us being a Nebraska, or Wisconsin, type program (not on the same level year after year) because we can recruit big hogs and coach them up which is what both of those programs did in the past and in the case of Wisconsin still do.
We would never be a Barry Switzer type program because they ran the wishbone and they were hardly a 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. More like 5-6 yards and a cloud of dust and then rip off a big gain.
If that were the direction BYU is headed Sitake certainly would NOT have Tanner in at QB. Does anyone even run the triple option anymore? Does Airforce?
The Jet option is designed to test the edges for speed but maybe of more importance, it spreads defenses out so that they can’t load the box with 8 or more defenders. Oregon won a national championship using it and now you see it everywhere. BYU has gotten more out of it then anyone I can think of this year. It will not go away in Grimes scheme. I can think of at least a half dozen variations we could run with that one single play (Hifo’s heave was only one)
Calling for Tanner’s head after this 2-1 start is now a waste of time. All along I though we would get through the tough games with experience, then switch to the new QB after some losses but Grimes (and others) have turned BYU into a Winner so get used to the idea that Tanner will finish the year out
I admit that I was starting to believe the hype that USU was possibly the best team in Utah followed by Utah, then BYU. What a week can do…USU is still scoring around 50 per game so I will play close attention Sat. to see what they can do with a good AF team…Utah’s Huntley is a BUST at throwing the ball and they are calling for his head…and BYU’s Mangum is a hero (for not throwing a pass). Feels like a soap opera.
Having watched the Ut,-Wash game, Utah’s defense is a good as it ever was, top 10 caliber, just not good on offense. Wash is just as good on D…they are both very very fast. Wash has a very good QB and that Gaskin kid at RB is the best we will see all year.
I agree that you don’t need big passing yards every game to win. Sometimes, you do, and then what?
Mangum’s 200+ yard games are mostly in his distant past, not his recent past. This disagreement among fans will all be settled this season, anyway. If Mangum can win games against Washington or Utah (or Boise St. or Utah St.) with 120 passing yards, then I will be elbowing you aside to argue that it doesn’t matter if we don’t have passing yardage. I’m just not naive enough to think that we’re going to get Wisconsin lightning in a bottle again anytime soon, and I don’t think we’ll have the success running that ball that we did against Wisconsin (and didn’t against Cal). Especially not after the upset.
If other teams make Mangum throw the ball for yardage and bottle up our run, then all of this will be settled, one way or another.
Yes, there is still a lot of football to be played yet, and all of this will be settled in head-to-head and on the field.
All I and others are saying is that we are very worried that the Grimes offense can keep having success against this good slate without passing well. If, at the end of the season, it turns out that we can play with anyone (especially on the road) without a credible passing game, then wonderful.
We’re not going to have the element of surprise any more, though, and the box is going to be stacked and the sweeps taken away. It remains to be seen if we can still inflict damage on the ground when that is what they’re looking for. Cal didn’t have any problem at all neutralizing it. And I don’t think anyone thinks Mangum can win games for us when he had to pass downfield, and everyone knows it.
Not everyone knows that Mangums inability to pass downfield is a huge problem. He is averaging 164 yds a game in passing … so far. He has won 2 games and lost 1 and the point difference is a plus 5.
Floyd thinks that Grimes has a magic formila that will allow BYU to win games with Tanner not throwing downfield. This will be interesting to see unfold because the teams who have been top 25 teams over the years … not throwing for more that 165 yards a game had rushing yards per game that are way more than the numbers put up by BYU. Tanner can’t run … and I don’t see Tanner leading a vaunted running attack but Floyd has been able to correctly predict games at Arizona and Wisc so I am giving him the benefit of the doubts that I have. It appears that total offense needs to be over 350 yds per game to win over the long run with a killer D. I am more comfortable at the 400 yds of total offense because I don’t think we have a D that is top tier … yet.
Aro, the rushing averages, per game, of all those teams you mentioned that had passing that was under 175 per game … makes the argument more powerful. The Neb, Georgia Tech, Air Force, West Virginia’s of the world had about 200 yards more per game in rushing that BYU has. Some of those teams are close to 300 yrds more than the Y! You have to have offense come from Somewhere and if Tanner is at 164 yards a game in the passing dept then the Y will need 230 - 250 yards running the ball. With Tanner as a non running threat … where is the offense going to come from?
It is a matter of time before the competition makes it painfully obvious that Tanner needs to exit the game.
You asked the question and answered it in the same paragraph. Yes, Cal did spy out our jet sweep. That was the first thing I pointed out in scouting Cal, before they played the game. But I will say this again, BYU was the better team, We lost to Cal because Sitake went for it on 4th downs rather then take the 3 points-twice. Had Sitake taken the points, BYU would not have thrown the last interception (my take) on that last drive. Coaching lost the Cal game, not Tanner.
I agree with you that Tanner can’t make a lot of throws, certainly takes too long and underthrows his long balls but he has managed the team and the game brilliantly against this murders row schedule. He does not get the credit for all the little things…He has been the right choice. You can’t teach experience.
I thought that before the Wisc. game but my how a win like this changed my mind. There is only one more game that scares the dickins out of me and that is Washington. They are explosive. All the others are winnable. Enjoy the ride and I do enjoy all your well thought out points
Now it all depends on how you capitalize on it. I know that ESPN is getting flooded with eyeballs on our future games. $$ ESPN-BYU TV contract $$$…comprendee?
BYU is the talk of the week. other news…Utah has no offense.
You have a point but you didn’t qualify your statement. You said no team in the last 20 years that averaged under 175 per game in passing yardage had finished in the top 25. It was factually incorrect and I knew it before I even checked the record books. The point I was making is that passing for 175 yards per game or more isn’t a pre-requisite to a top 25 ranking. Another school I found that had attained a national ranking without meeting the 175 yard criteria on a few occasions was Iowa and Iowa’s running game, while good, was not in a class with of Wisconsin.
I think Iowa, Wisconsin, Nebraska are all programs BYU could replicate given the type of athletes they can recruit. None of those programs are in major population areas but they can recruit big strong linemen and none of them have the SEC type athleticism. BYU should strive for the type of team that can run for 200 yards and pass for 200 yards, on average, per game, control the ball, limit mistakes of all types, play sound defense, and be solid in the kicking game. I believe all that is attainable. If they can do all that year after year they will be a top 25 program year after year with an occasional special season. They will never be a program that can complete with the SEC elites and Clemson because they will never be able to recruit the kind of athletes those programs can recruit.
We started with ESPN, their 1st broadcast. There is a big buzz about BYU nationally. You don’t go into Randle and Beat a top 10 without being good. I said it from the beginning, “We have solid talent at ALL key positions”. No reason to compete with anyone we face. While I agree with Floyd on a lot about this team, I had to take a double take when he said, “BYU doesn’t have any playmakers”. What? Tell that to Taki taki, Hifo and Tonga to start with.
BYU is in the drivers seat with ESPN, just keep winning.
According to Grimes, his vision is to stretch the defense in both directions (down field and side to side). The sweeps are used to open up the run in the middle, it also helps with the passing game…