Reason(s) We Lost Ugly Again

Saw replay and it was hard to watch - again. Seen the discussion back and forth about D lost it or O lost it. Here is how I saw it:

  1. Huge difference in the D played by SM and us. Our perimeter D, inside D and all other D was horrible - theirs was for the most part good. All game long they were getting open threes while we were trying to sink them with hands in the face.
  2. Our offense was a mess most of the night. It truly looked like five guys just running around without any design until somewhat chucked it up from downtown hoping to make one or driving into a crowd hoping for good fortune. This led to what seemed like about 10 blocks of shots against us in the first 12 minutes. What the heck kind of offense is this?
  3. Little good to say about our bigs. The scoring inside is just extremely weak and on the other end, they allow themselves to get backed down for easy shots routinely. Footwork/positioning is really poor. Very little Rose has done in the ways of screens down low to get these guys good looks.
  4. Because our point guard can’t shoot from past 3’, he ends up with forced drives into serious traffic over and over as people sag off of him. I admit he makes some tough shots but I still think he would be better off closer to the hoop rather than handling the ball. He’s a great passer inside - not nearly so good running the O from the point.

I would like to see Rose try a lineup of Fisher, Emery, possibly Chatman, with Collinsworth at 4 and Davies in the middle. And please Rose, get these guys to set some decent screens closer to the hoop and move their feet on defense. The easy penetration with out passes for open threes are killing this team along with really poor defensive rotations.

No D. Rose does not know defense.

Last I checked, D is 1/2 half of the equation.

Like I said, we could work our players as hard has possible and they still won’t slide properly and stay in front of their man. I don’t know why because I assume they are taught how but simply don’t have enough fast twitch muscles to accomplish it enough. The rotation when help comes is often good. But returning to their position and out on a shooter is slow in reaction. It is what it is.

So, like I’ve been saying. You can beat that horse to death or realize the only way we win games is with the offense. Just like Lavell did in football. And, your observations are good. My line up would have been from the start: 1. Chatman 2. Emery 3. KC ( as small forward mostly at the block ) 4. Davis 5. Kaufusi
Kaufusi and leave him there getting all the experience possible before league started last night. Rose stopped that and had him ride the bench 3 or 4 games before league and last night is what you get.
Subs would be Fischer and he could play some 2 and 3. Aytes would come in for Davis and Austin and Shaw would be splitting time for the 5.

Not for every team. Some teams are great on D and rely on it to hold teams to a low score. Others are not great at D but great at offense. That is suppose to be BYU. But, your offense has to be good every night. You can’t miss layups even in a crowd. At that level you should be able to did that.
Davis did his back down play several times in the first half and mist his little half hook shot he normally makes. Fisher bricked 4 open layups and so did Emery. So KC. That’s why we should have won and why we lost. The D is in my opinion not fixable against good offensive teams like SM.

Seems to me that the poor play in the first half is what did the game in…again. on the road again…
The second half they played much more BYU’s game and it was much closer…the kind of game it usually is against the gaels at the gaels. But the first half as with every other true road game this year just put the team in to deep of a hole to get out of. Yes I know bigger holes against Utah and Colo but neither of those teams has the home confidence or the nation leading offense that the Gaels do.

I thought Rose finally had found his starters to get the ball rolling right with Austin starting instead of Kaufusi in Hawai’i …the tinkering will continue till this team rolls into the NIT or it starts clicking…I’d be betting NIT if I were betting.

Rose should have stayed with his starters before the tournament as it was too close to league to monkey with the line up. As I’ve mentioned before about this game is we missed layups and short shots. Which is simple a lack of concentration. The reason for that is:

  1. Lack of team play because there is no continuity with players, not selfishness.
  2. Players concentrating on not missing so they don’t get pine stain.

Again we start slow like you mentioned.

We have the players but not the coaching. Our players and their coach and we win by 20. Team line up is messed up. KC needs to play a point forward ,no need for 20’ drives to shoot a lay up, and he should only shoot lay ups. Chapman needs to start to help with defense when the games start, so we aren’t starting in a hole, also, Chapman looks to spread the ball, which is what is needed. Fisher never spreads his arms to deflect passes, this is simple guard skill… Not enough scoring from either center, Davis does provide this and rebounding. 8’s could pickup some of the slack when coming from bench.The two freshman need to see playing time now and not lose a whole season developing… Not enough coaching taking place from the whole staff, don’t these guys go to coaching clinics, at least go, and buy come dvd’s on screening , pick and roll and etc Every time a player is caught without his hands spread on defense, should be benched with a coach in their face so all the players can get the same message… The coaches talk about urgency. but don’t coach with any. They show too much privileges toward the players. What they need is a few Italian or Jewish coaches, I am German and not racist. Just the cold hard facts, My dad who was a convert would say, I am in business to make money not friends. Too much gullability in the church.

1 Like

We could have played ten deep this year. But, Rose just should have picked that ten with a better offense. We started off not going to the weave and played a better offense. But we came right back to it and every WCC team knows it and keeps us from getting open 3’s. We also have no one that can shoot midrange shots. Instead, we have players who drive into the bigs and get blocked too much. Drive when there a real possibility of scoring. Makes sense to me.
Our losses are about the offense. Nothing can be done with the defense since lineups keep changing.

Wow… Utah choked one away big time tonight vs. Stanford. Numerous opportunities to win the game at the free throw line after blowing a double digit lead late in the game and they just choked it away. The worst one was that Taylor dude (the one that Emery gut punched) at the free throw line with two shots, a tie game and 1.8 seconds to go. So what does he do? misses both of them.

Maybe that is karma… for putting his hand in Emery’s face and talking smack all the time.

I don’t like to see Utah lose, but I don’t like to see them win either… too bad.

Interesting how all of those slow white guys on Saint Mary’s don’t have problems with their “fast twitch” muscles… must be something from the land down under. :dizzy_face:

You don’t want them to win and you don’t want them to lose. Now that is a contradiction :wink:

Probably right. No, our weave offense has been figured out how to defend. Doesn’t take so much fast twitch muscle. As blacks, whites have various amounts of fast twitch muscles too. Maybe White Mormons have an abundance of slow twitch muscles like when you played :wink:

If Coach Rose’s “offense has been figured out how to defend” then how is it that next to Mark Few he has the best winning percentage in conference? in the top ten in the entire nation? He certainly doesn’t get a top ten winning percentage level of talent…and nobody would claim it is his team’s defensive prowess. It is his offense, mostly tweaked from what Guy Lewis ran at Houston, which got Coach Lewis to the Naismith Hall of Fame last I checked, which people hire him to come and teach them how to run.

I’ve wondered how much Guy Lewis was influenced if at all by Stan Watts, BYU’s only basketball hall of fame coach, unless you count Kresmir as a coach which he wasn’t at BYU. Watts and Lewis and Rose all had/have teams playing fast and won a lot of games.

We aren’t playing fast. Haven’t you noticed? We don’t have a Jimmer or a Haws. None of the players we have no how to get open for midrange shots or be consistent with long threes. Nor do we have a player other than Savis down low who can create a shot.
So, all the weave does is tire out players. It fools no one in the WCC. They’ve seen it before and push it out and know where the players will be. That’s why we see all the dribbling and forcing the ball to the basket. Sometimes they get there.
As I’ve been trying to say, once there we have to make contested and non-contested layups. There contested because they know our offense and have two or three people ready clogging up shots and potential outlets to shooters on the outside. And, have you noticed that they let CF get inside? Teams want that because he chokes layups, shoots 70% FTs and keeps him from being open for a good 3 shot. Watch the game today. If we make the layups we win. If we shoot like we did against SMU we lose.

BYU might not be playing fast. But there are only 10 teams in Division 1 who have an average shorter possession length.

What do you call fast?

Missed layups were not the difference in winning or losing the game. Saint Mary’s missed their share of close shots and layups as well. I’m not sure why you are focusing on that except to try and make some point but the fact is they didn’t miss a plethora of layups.

The facts point to the matter that they were just flat outplayed. Saint Mary’s played a better game and did what they had to do on both ends of the floor to win the game.That is it.

The interesting thing about it is that they are basically a new group of players with very little experience playing together and very little game experience, yet they play team basketball and work together to help each player realize his potential. They obviously have good chemistry because it is something they have worked at to this point. They have a very good coach as well.

Perhaps BYU could learn a thing or two in those areas of the game to help themselves be more successful. A record of 9-5 at this point is not very good. If BYU struggles in today’s game, against 3-9 Pacific… well, I don’t think they will but we shall see.

Its called good coaching.

Its called…when you are on the road playing on the others guy’s gym, typically your long balls are not dropping as easy so you change the game to banging away inside with Davis and Aytes. Get their guys in foul trouble. Make them ride pine. Don’t let their guys get open looks at the 3 ball.

I will be glad to see this crop of seniors go…Then we will see the Lone Peak boys plus Elijah Bryant and Childs play their style of ball. Rose may not care to learn defense but this crop of newbies coming in will. We will have 2 legit point guards (3 of you count Chatman)

"Even though we went down at the half by (nine at Saint Mary’s), none of us felt too alarmed. We scored 47 points in the second half. You’d think that would be good enough to come back and win from a nine-point deficit, but it wasn’t. We didn’t defend good enough.” KD
I think he sums it up pretty nicely.
The O hums at least half of every game. Usually enough to win. The issue this year, as last year, and the year before, is the porous defense especially on the 3s. What happened to Quincy Lewis’s emphasis on defense in preseason practice?

that is the million $$ question. Why isn’t Quincy influencing the team more?

How can Rose be one of the winningest coaches % wise and yet we still are 1st round losers in the dance every year. It all boils down to recruiting and the type of player that we go after. BYU goes after these kids that are Mr basketball types from all these states (Emery-Utah, Saljaas-Utah, Chatman-Colo, the kid that is leaving-Colo, both Marty and TJ Haws -Utah). Typically in high school, these guys spend all of their time working on adding to their shot selection and they spend little time on defensive skills, that is what they have teammates for…to play defense. They come to the Y and now we have a team full of scorers who are poor at defending.

Elite teams in the country have teams comprised of:
1 a wicked fast point guard, who can always get by their defender if needed but plays with his head up looking to pass.
2) several pure shooters to spread the floor
3) a bruising power forward who love to bang and score
4) a towering glass cleaning, D loving center that keeps the middle honest
5) and a bunch of utility athletes who never look for a shot but can defend from 1-4 that will take fouls when needed, wear the other teams go-to guys down, get turnovers and just play for the team.

Elite coaches recruit athletes and turn them into defenders and shut down specialists. BYU does not EVER recruit that type of athlete…Yeolli Childs is that type of player so I have hope for the future.

10 layups = 20 points
Score diff. = 11 points


BYU wins by 9 points

Any first grader could understand subtraction :innocent: