Takeaways from LBSU

  1. Aytes looks strong in the paint. Strong with good hands in traffic.
  2. Davis is a solid rebounder and decent post player but is one of the worst passers I’ve ever seen.
  3. Why Rose put the ball in Davis’ hands for two butchered in bounds passes in the last seconds is beyond me.
  4. Toolson is not a D1 player. Slow, can’t jump, can’t pass, can’t rebound, and is a TO waiting to happen.
  5. KC and Fischer both looked selfish and panicked. Both realized the need for somebody to take over but neither was even close to being up to the task. They must have had what, six offensive fouls between them???
  6. The TOs are shameful and FT shooting is worse than shameful.
  7. Kaufusi is an awesome athlete and it’s fun to see him gaining confidence to score in the paint.
  8. Chatman looks good. Emery looks plenty athletic but wow what a terrible shooting night. Long Beach will have to buy new rims after some of the flankers he threw up there. Emery needs a reality check so he will realize that when you are 6’0 and can’t dunk you should not try to finish at the rim in traffic. He gets swatted all too often.
  9. We didn’t even look like a D1 team out there. That was pretty hard to watch.
  10. I already miss Ty. As in a lot. As in a real lot. This was the first game in 3 years that we didn’t have a good shooter to count on to give us a shot at the end. KC looks like he’s regressed two years at the stripe. Seriously? 4-9 is bad enough for your PG, but was that the UGLIEST 4-9 in the history of organized basketball? Good luck to us this year in close games putting the ball in KC’s hands and waiting for him to miss free throws or commit a charge.

I think Collingsworth and Fischer both think that they personally need to replace the scoring of Haws. BYU was better without Fischer in the game. BYU would have been better with someone other than Collingsworth at the point late in the game.
That said, the officiating in the first half (when LBSU went on thier run) was awful. Several balls called out of bounds on BYU that were out on LBSU, several blocking fouls that were called as charges, BYU got frustrated with the bad calls and couldn’t function. Fischer never got over the bad calls.
Bad officiating aside, when 50% free throw shooting would win the game, it’s your fault if you lose.

I had to wait for a night’s sleep before I posted. My frustration with the play could of skewed my takeaways.

1-LBSU is a good team that will challenge for the conference and be dancing, so let’s get that out of the way. They are athletic and frustrated the heck out of BYU all night. We earned every point and LBSU created many of our offensive fouls and turnovers.

2- 24 turnovers will get you a loss every time, KC, the man running the show had 7 and that translates into something like 27 points for LBSU.

3- shooting 38% at the stripe will get you a loss most of the time.

4- Fischer, senior scored all of 2 points to go with his many offensive fouls and turnovers. As Jim would say, “He disappears in big games”

5- Larimer is correct about Toolson, I have been saying it all along, he is too slow, plays no defense but BYU will have plenty of use for him because when he is open, he can hit a 3.

6_Emery, welcome to D1 basketball, now play smart.

Now for some good stats…

7-Kaufusi had his best game as a coug (17 points, 10 rebounds) and the only coug to shoot decent from the FT.

7- Davis and Aytes were also bright spots (if you take away the turnovers) Davis has another near double double with 10 and 9 boards.

8- now back to KC, he had good moments (typical double double) 13 boards is just crazy but he is the floor general and he killed us with inexplicable turnovers and airballs at the FT stripe, I mean, who does that?
Chatman could step up I guess?

9- This team showed me several things against a good LBSU team. They will fight back and not quit (Good) a lot of rust from and chemistry issues, which is to be expected from 9 new guys (Bad) plenty of talent (Good) that will take time to work out the quirks. Played good defense at times (Good)

10- we seemed to have solved our low post wows and played some defense.

We have 3 games before Utah to figure it out but Utah is playing at a much higher level with 3 legit players in Leverage, Taylor, and Poeltl (who was a 1st rounder last year and has put on 30 lbs of muscle). Those dudes are playing in mid season form with a bunch of newbies (why the hell can’t we?)

I gave my takeaways/grades in another thread but I can reply here as well, especially now that I have had a little time to think about it. Less than 4 hours of sleep last night and early morning seminary are probably clouding my thinking but oh well…

I think I will just agree with some of the things posted here first and then disagree and explain myself.

First off, I agree with most of what you said Chris, particularly as it relates to “stats”. A team isn’t likely to win a game when they have 24 (bad) turnovers or shoot 38% free throws. Most high school teams do better than that and those kids will never play D-1 ball. I do think Tom hit the nails on the head though. I agree with everything he said. It is uncanny how exact my thoughts are to yours Larimer. Every point you made was exactly as I saw it and thought about it. I might clarify some of those things with a slightly different perspective but those takeaways are all accurate. I think Chris’ take is good but he has the Utah Valley blinders on… I promise you guys it is so real and palpable but at the same time, so hard to recognize when you are caught in the middle of it… like being in the eye of a hurricane. That isn’t a knock on you Chris, I love your takeaways, but I think they are skewed because of your hope, love, whatever for BYU sports and wanting them to win. I feel that too, but I live outside the bubble. Hopefully that doesn’t sound arrogant or judgemental because I don’t mean it that way. There are others who read this that will know what I am talking about. Don’t get me wrong, I love VISITING Utah Valley and it was a great place to go to school.

Some of the things I might add to Tom’s takeaways would be 1. Aytes took awhile to get going and I don’t know why Rose pulled him. 2. Davis disappointed me, he bought into the KC, CF mindset and forced his way too many times ending up in ugly results. 3. Rose having Davis inbound twice with a chance to win went like the game… terrible. 4. Toolson was on the floor but went unnoticed except for a couple 3’s. 5. Very frustrating watching those 2 choke away the game over and over. 6. Agree 7. Kaufusi made one mistake all night, he was great except when he jumped at the little guy in the lane. 8. Note to Emery… you aren’t at LP high school anymore. Chatman is a player. 9. Amazing BYU only lost by 1 point. 10. Agree, miss Tyler’s shooting and free throws.

So Chris… time for another update and check in. 1. LBSU is not that good. I’ll be shocked if they make it to the dance. They were picked in the middle of the pack in a conference that gets 1 team invited. 2. Agree 3. Agree 4. I have said CF disappears in big games. Now I can say he might disappear in any game or he disappears when the team needs him… he looked totally lost out there. 5. Toolson would be great at UVU. 6. Emery, the LP wizard, got a wake up call last might. I tried to tell you guys this wasn’t high school anymore. A LOT changes during these years. 7, Kaufusi deserves a ton of props. If he keeps it up, he has a shot at the NBA. His increased strength will pay huge dividends. 7. A “Bright spot” with turnovers is a dim spot. Davis was average at best… 8. KC had NO good moments. That reverse layup was awesome but meaningless when shadowed by his erratic, uncontrolled chaos and poor leadership. Kaufusi’s offensive foul was all on KC. 9. Don’t make excuses… LBSU has a lot of new players too and they aren’t as good as you think they might be. The defense was only marginally better than last year. LBSU had a ton of open looks and BYU paid the price. 10. I don’t think the low post issues are solved but they are headed in the right direction, like the defense too.

I think it will take BYU more than 3 games to be in a position to compete with Utah but I could be wrong. Maybe BYU has a great game and Utah stumbles, but the chances of that happening are slim. Lastly, this game was more than frustrating to watch. It was horrible to watch…

Not surprising - get BYU away from home and against a mediocre team-this is what is possible - against a good team-more than likely. This team should get better - young with some talent. Can BYU play any worse-doubtful. Out of the bubble things are clearer. Tom’s and Jim’s posts summed it up. Hopefully it’s going to get better.

I agree with rblack on the officiating. It was awful. Almost every 50-50 out of bounds ball went to LB. Our players drove and got grabbed, pushed and bumped even while shooting and during LB’s run, none of that was called. Pay no attention to the foul count or the free throws, which were pretty even for the game. The refs made it clear that physical defense by BYU would be fouls while they let LB play “Gonzaga” hacking grabbing defense when we had the ball. Those officials should be working middle school games.

Even with the bad reffing, BYU still had chances and we played terrible. I see a .500 conference record. We stink.

I think it is a mistake to label LBSU as a good team, especially a mistake to label them as a tournament team. If they are a good team, BYU will be a great team once they get their act together. BYU dominated LBSU defensively. LBSU didn’t win this game. BYU simply shot themselves in the foot just enough times to give LBSU the win. The game plan for LBSU late was simple, it was a modified hack a Shaq game plan. Simply foul BYU every time they get the ball. They will probably miss the free throw anyway, plus, there was about a 50% chance that it wouldn’t be called.
At this point, I wouldn’t be disappointed to see all of the seniors come off the bench and let the freshmen and sophomores run the team. They couldn’t do worse than our three seniors and it would benefit us for next year.

wow that’s dark.
Austin is coming off the bench.
between the first two games KD and CK showed that the paint will be reasonably well covered. Aytes and Austin will fill in minutes for KD and CK and the two of them will continue to get better and improve as a team.
The defense so far this year puts almost all of Rose’s previous teams to shame.

KC and Fischer continue to start for awhile. If one of the frosh, I’d put my money on Seljas or Chatman, proves good enough in conference then Fischer’s time will be cut much like Carlino’s…

The farther into his tenure Rose has gone the closer he comes to getting most of his players legitimate minutes in the game…just like his Dixie squads that dominated the JC basketball courts. Minutes may well be cut for the seniors over time. That is what Rose tends to do with all but the most important players like Jimmer, Tyler, Brandon…no need to list morethe minutes over the years show the story amply.

I think people are reading too much into one bad game by Collinsworth. He will be the best player on the team and the leader. The other night was an anomaly except the free throw shooting. He normally doesn’t turn the ball over much. He has been a very good player as a three year starter. He won’t be replaced in the starting lineup. Maybe he is trying to do too much offensively at this point. He has never been the type of player to be the primary scorer. It will have to be scoring by committee or somebody else will have to fill the role of the big scorer.

I’m not saying that either Fischer or Collingsworth will be replaced in the starting lineup, I’m saying they should be replaced in the starting lineup. Let them earn their starting job back after showing up to a game completely unprepared to play.

Good thing you aren’t the coach. You don’t do that because of one bad game. All that does is cause discontent with the players. And, potential recruits will see the Dr. Jeckel and Mr, Hyde in the coach. Take a deep breath. KC was 4-9 shooting, 13 rebounds and 6 assists.most of his turnovers were in the first half. He settled down and played a good second half. This is a new team and he will get used to them.
One other point, the “weave” seems to get the players hypnotized and pass even if someone isn’t open. It causes lazy passing and really bad passing technique. The offense needs to be changed to a more post related motion offense. Tyler isn’t here anymore and at this point we don’t have anyone that is like him.

Okay Mr. Coach… go ahead and foster the sense of entitlement that often causes these things to happen in the first place. Kaufusi was the only guy from last year who played decent. Fischer was absolutely horrible… is that how a leader does it? KC wasn’t much better and no, he didn’t play a “good” second half. He may not have had as many turnovers but the ones he did have were critical… particularly when BYU had opportunities to win the game at the end. Also, the only thing new about this team is they don’t have any reliable scorers… they have been playing together for a couple of months and have had numerous games (remember the tour in Europe) to develop some chemistry and find their roles, etc.

On another point, the basketball teams’ offense looked a little like the football teams’… boring and predictable. That is why there were so many turnovers, because LBSU knew what BYU was doing and they looked like robots a lot of the time. I agree with some of what you are saying but if we are going to see the same thing we saw last season, minus Tyler Haws, it is going to be a long year. The defense is only slightly better at this point as they left the middle too open and LBSU got a lot of easy shots in the key. I thought the bigs were supposed to fix that. Lastly, I hope BYU doesn’t spend the whole season trying to get KC his triple doubles… when he is playing poorly, he should be sitting on the sideline trying to figure out how he can make everyone else better and not concern himself with his triple doubles…

Typical half full comments.
KC - 12 points, 13 rebounds and 6 assists.
4 for 9 shooting = 44.4% for a collegiate guard isn’t that bad. Wow, bad game (rolling eyes). Yes, 6 turnovers needs to be cut in half but terrible game? 4 assists from a triple double. The sky isn’t falling.
Two areas we need to improve quickly is lower turnovers by getting rid of the robot globetrotter weave. Better free throw shooting.

I’m all for keeping continuity and letting players play through rough stretches. However, what we saw against LBSU was not a rough stretch. It was bad basketball against a bad team. The coach needs to show leadership by making it clear to the players that preseason hype does not guarantee a starting spot. Rough stretches are expected and forgivable. Lazy, bad play needs to be eliminated.

So you really think BYU stinks and the officials were that one-sided?

BYU was really bad and I don’t think the officiating had anything to do with it.

I agree Richard.

Scott keeps throwing out stats trying to justify KC’s play, but that doesn’t tell the story of the game and how he played. He wasn’t “good”… he wasn’t even average… he was bad but in KC’s defense, he was better than Fischer… :smile: .

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And you don’t think Rose does any of that? My feelings based on my expertise is the offense motion globetrotter weave has to be done away with. We have post players who can score in the paint. Two man games with a motion on the weak side so that the post can have other options to kick the ball out to is what we need to do most of. We can do some high-low against the zone defenses by using KC, KD and Atyes along with Kaufusi. Just get rid of the weave and that will cut many of the turnovers down.

The facts (stats) don’t lie. He’s not an outside shooter. He should stick to 15ft and in.
He must make a lot of shots in practice to think he can shoot outside. But, for you to equate KC’s performance with Fischer’s is rediculous.

Uh oh… here come the reading comprehension issues again. Here is exactly what I wrote -

Now does that sound like I am “equating” his performance? or saying that it was “better”?

This is basic comprehension and understanding… is there a word for not being able to understand what someone writes even though it is perfectly clear? :smile:

Apparently Rose isn’t doing some things… like changing the offense to utilize the bigs more.

I happen to agree with you on this. You see it is easier to agree with someone when you understand what they are writing. :wink: