Targeting, calls vs. non-calls

Football
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While this true, We as members do not need to use it as a club… As President Kimball, once said “They have “some” truth, and if a church leads them to Christ that is a good thing, It is our responsibility to help them come to the complete truth”.

That is my point, far too many members use the “True Church” moniker against those of other faiths. I believe that is why the Leaders over the last several years have stressed more love thy neighbor in their talks.

some of the states I have in lived in Utah, Nevada, Arizona… The others was not that long. Yes, I have seen my experiences in these states, but not to the extent that I felt growing up.

I generally do not like to talk about the time when I joined the church because it is a time of great joy and pain. But since I told this story Sunday, I can tell it now.

When I grew up in a small town west of Salt Lake City, I was pretty much ostracized by the members of the church because of the things my siblings and parents did or were. My father as you know was a bartender, not really looked on among the Mormons.

When I was 16 I had a life altering event, that basically got me to come to the church and join it. I had three LDS friends in school that helped me go through this process.

You would think that members of the Lord church would embrace a young man who was turning away from the lifestyles of his family to part of the Lord’s kingdom, but where I lived, that was not true. I would go to church and sit on the back row all alone and NO ONE ever sat close to me because my clothes (I am assuming this) smelled like smoke. For three years I went to church and sat alone. I went on mission and return, yet I did not get the homecoming other RM’s got… I got married in the Temple and very few of the ward members came.

I learned at a very young age (regarding my membership) to separate the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which is perfect in every way) and the Church (which is ran by fallible men (according to President Uchtdorf) because it was the ONLY way to stay true to the conviction I had of the gospel.

Now you know my story, I do not use this as a way to pat myself on the back, but rather a way for you to understand where I came from.

Hope that helps.

22

I have thoughts about any church bringing a person closer to Christ but I got too embroiled in the Prop 8 “discussion” to get into another. But have fun with this one while I observe on the sideline. :slight_smile:

23

I love your story and am sorry you had to go through that experience. I’ve heard there are so many members in Utah that have extended family networks that they really don’t need the Church for their social needs. They have enough family members in the Church that they don’t feel as great a need to extend themselves. The family shows up to each other’s wards with each baby blessing, baptism, mission farewell and homecoming. It is a different dynamic in my California ward. Many don’t have family close by that are members. In our ward, the ward members fill that family role. We have a young man in our ward who was a gang member and served prison time for nearly beating another kid to death with a pipe. Once he was out, he started dating our former bishop’s daughter. The daughter moved in with this guy and they later ended up married. I know some parents who would have disowned the daughter and new son-in-law. Instead, the family opened their home and hearts to the couple. The young man was so impressed to feel what it was like to have a real family, he started investigating the Church. He has since joined the Church, been sealed in the temple and serves in the Elders Quorum. The ward is his extended family and he was embraced by all. I’m sorry for your experience but I’m just saying that is not typical of all wards.

24

Floyd,

I appreciate the comments and even that we can have them on a BYU sports board under a football heading. I think there is something good about that.

However, I don’t consider not having time to socialize with some of your neighbors or having a testimony of the truthfulness of Christ’s church as persecution. I also don’t consider not having your kids play with other kids who drink, smoke, get in trouble with the law, use foul language, pornography, etc. as persecuting those kids but rather good parenting. Now what you are really trying to say it seems that people are trying to be mean spirited about such things. Well, if so I would say that is very minor “persecution” also. It is more like someone is looking for offense.

While serving in the military and in the church in various positions around the US and the world I have seen members so busy with family, church, work, personal interests, etc. that they do not engage with those outside of their work and church circles that much not because they hate them or wish to persecute them but because they are busy trying to keep their lives afloat and function w/in the circles in which they already participate. I have seen parents direct their kids away from peer pressure to do wrong things but NEVER once heard anyone say they do not associate with non-members.

What I have seen is those not in the church assume they were targeted or left out purposefully and in a mean spirited way but I have NEVER seen that be the members intent. Sorry your experience is different.

25

Gary,
I appreciate your comments,

first, I never said anything about being “persecuted”. Second, If you think that not associating with people because they live a different lifestyle than you is right, may I refer you to the last General Conference on that particular issue. Because according to them, we are to allow our children to associate with non LDS kids. Even when they do things that you may not appreciate.

So you are too busy to be a missionary Gary, is that what you are telling me? Again, refer back to the last conference talks about this particular issue, because it was addressed in it.

I had many people tell me that the reason they did not allow their children to play with me was because I was a bad influence, I guess that is what you call “good parenting”… I have to disagree… Good parenting is helping your children understand that while others may not live your standards, you must live them to show your friends that their is a better way to live. You see, those children that were not allowed to play with me are no longer active in the church, never served a mission and never married in the Temple… I have done all three things.

So my question to you is simple: "how can someone not of our faith be able to see a different way to live, if they are never allowed to associate with LDS people?

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What’s wrong with all that? :joy:

27

When people wouldn’t sit with me I figured it was the Beno not working :thinking:

28

I think there are degrees that you look at who your kids are hanging around. My dad, not Mormon, taught you are who you hang around. The degree of wickedness one exhibits may help decide how much you want to hang around them and your children.

29

I would concur with much of what Glenn and Gary said. I agree with what you said as well. I believe that is exactly what happened and particularly with your perceptions as a young man. It is unfortunate that you didn’t have those friends who got you into the church or an adult leader to mentor you at that time. Those things would have helped. I make a concerted effort to help everyone feel welcomed and important. Why do I do that? Because they ARE important. I think Glenn had some good things to say too, but he is in California and us evil california mormons are usually a little more welcoming and friendly with people who may not feel welcomed in other places.

30

Define “wickedness”…

" My dad, not Mormon, taught you are who you hang around."

Read what the savior did with “wicked” people (according to the Pharisees and Sadducee group…

Also if a wicked person hangs with a righteous person, then which side of your dad comment takes precedence?

Scott, I understand the concept, and I frankly do not believe anyone is anything simply because they choose to hang out with certain people. People are who they are because the Lord allowed them to have agency.

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Jim, you are a good man with a good heart… I have known that for years…

If Scott is right and you are a bishop, then do me a favor as you sit up on the stand each Sunday. Watch the people body language as they come to sacrament, not what they “Say” but what their body language says.

Then watch how others react around each other, do the people make sure everyone feels welcome?

It is kind of weird thing watching other non verbal communication, because when you focus on just the non verbal communication, it reveals a lot about people, that they may not know even exist.

in college I learned how to read body language, like you, I find those people who need a " spiritual hug" because life is not being kind to them. It amazing how many people tell me that they “needed that”.

I am done talking about this subject, because no matter what sources or information I provide, people will always try to justify their actions for doing what they are doing, not even taking the time to “think and evaluating about what I am saying”

I offend a lot of people, mostly because I try to be completely honest with others. some times that is a curse, sometimes it is a blessing…

One thought: In the scriptures, the Lord talks about the last days… and the burning of the wicked… Which group do you think the Lord will start his “burning” with? The church or the world?

32

Growing up amongst the wicked away from the righteous Utards, I saw many of my childhood friends fall into drug use in the late 60’s. They hung around others who had started using and were persuaded to do likewise. If you want to talk agency, they chose to hang around with them. Some of them were able to get out in time while others still are not out or dead from it.
If you want to play the politically correctness game that is your choice. I know exactly what my father was saying. You cannot fence sit with bad people who sway you towards the dark side.

33

See Scott… I was one of those “bad” people… That GOOD LDS PARENTS tried to get their kids to stay away from because they did not want them influenced by my bad behavior (their opinion)…

I never took drugs …
I never drank…
I was never in trouble with the Law…
I earned a 3.8 in High School…
I joined the church…
I went on a mission…
I married in the Temple…
Still married to the same woman…
Raised 5 kids in the Gospel…

Thier Kids:
Left the church
They “had to” get married
Some of them drank
Some of them took drugs
None was married in the Temple
None went on missions…

Their friends were all the “good” kids their parents wanted them to hang out with…

So exactly how is hanging out with “Bad” kids is a bad idea?

Perception is NOT reality Scott… Kids whether they hang out with good or bad kids does not define them… It is how they are raised in the church, that will ultimately determine if they stay in the church.

Ask any less active member who was raised in the church… 9 out of 10 times the reason for the less active status “Church was forced down my throat”, that is not how the Savior told us to teach our children by forcing them.

I am politically correct? that is a new one LOL …

34

You folks throw generalities around like they are double dipped chocolate peanuts! I was inactive (no bad behavior at all, just stopped going) for over 20 years. When I went back to church there was 3 or 4 people who shook my hand ONCE IN A WHILE but there sure was no “fellowshipping.” And that is ok because it is up to me. With kids who are acting out, I believe that members should allow their children (if mature enough and socially adept), I mean adolescents, to “mentor” acting out kids but monitor the situation so that member’s kids don’t fall into problematic behavior. With younger children, I would have my kids play with non-member and inactive member kids but also other kids whose parents are active in the church.

But goodness gracious, broad stroking everyone with these critical generalities will do everyone harm. I was raised to seek the spirit for ratification of what I am taught from Sunday School, to Sac. Mtg to general authorities talks and writings. If we do that then we would be able to discern these issues and learn from the spirit how to act.

35

Thanks Roy, I really appreciate your comments… Broad stroking is not a good idea for anything, whether it is church, politics, fans of other teams, etc…

1 Like
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Is reading and comprehension a problem today. I think I stated quite clearly that bad kids referred to those doing drugs and other things both in and outside the church.

37

Would you kindly show in any of your posts above that “Clearly” states you are referring to both those doing drugs and other things inside and outside the church?

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“I saw many of my childhood friends fall into drug use in the late 60’s. They hung around others who had started using and were persuaded to do likewise.”

Yawn!!!

39

Floyd wrong on every account of what you implied, twisted, and threw into question about my statements or at least that is how I perceive your statements. I know short typed word doesn’t convey thoughts, emotions, and subtlety as face to face. Most of the time we are more on the same page than not.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you typed others have a persecution complex, I then say I have not seen church members persecute others then you reply you have lived in six states and seen “it”. It was logical for me to assume your “it” was referring to persecution.

Whatever the case I still have not found LDS folks persecuting non-LDS folks in the way you suggest. I also struggle to call that “it” persecution. What I have seen is non-LDS folks claiming to be purposely ostracized and my observations on their position is this: 1) They really didn’t want to come to church, meet the missionaries, socialize in our groups, etc. but they enjoyed the opportunity to talk bad about us, 2) Oversight by busy people to reach out more but not ill intent, 3) The street goes both ways and the complainers rarely came the other way.

As a Branch President of a large military unit in Okinawa there was this one young sister we tried to love to the best of our ability. We baked bread and goodies, invited her, gave service, left notes of kindness. She sometimes responded but then in the end complained to her First Sergeant we were persecuting her. She ate at my table. She counseled in my office. She accepted our goodies. She seemed to accept our love then the complaints came. You know what the truth ended up being? She didn’t want to live our standards and do the things we do. The people I have met that complain about LDS folks don’t want to live our standards, do the things we do, or really spend a lot of time with us. They like our cookies and fun activities but it ends there and we are the bad guys.

What I do find amusing is how these neglected outsiders know every conversation, every word and every reason why as if they sat at the offending LDS families dinner table yet they are not.

Me and the LDS friends have always reached out to neighbors and co-workers around the world and our doors have always been open. Sometimes they join us and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes I join them and sometimes I don’t.

I am sure you were a perfect influence on others and always raised everyone around you morally and spiritually. Sorry to hear evil LDS folks punished you for that but glad you let the gospel be about Christ and your eternal salvation.

We are all in this together Brother. Sorry to disagree somewhat but that is how I see it.

Now, I really hope I see a refreshed and vigorous Taysom that has a little more touch on his passes and goes beastmode much sooner.