Reliving the delusional glory days…
BYU was plenty good during the last 12 years to win at least ONE regular season or tournament title and Gonzaga wasn’t always that dominant, they just had a lot of help when they needed it.
I’m okay with that opinion. It is reasonable and logical. The BYU teams that came right after Jimmer were ALL good enough to win a WCC title. Yes Gonzaga was good, but BYU was certainly as good, if not better, some of those seasons. There are reasons beyond being good enough or playing good enough why they didn’t.
All those years Utah handed BYU losses on the football field? How many in a row? We were good enough a few of those years but just lost a few in the final minute. Happens. And, it happened in Basketball. The reason nobody agrees wholeheartedly with you or even a little is because conspiracies are scripted. They are never unscripted. And, when every game the officials are attacked win or lose, it gets tiring. So, even when they seem biased, it’s, well, meh…
I won’t be watching tonight on the beginning. I’m taping it.
There is no doubt that the WCC up graded over the past 3 years. I don’t know that it was because of BYU. Most likely it was but I do know that Gonzaga demanded that the other teams start playing tougher schedules or they would walk. I also know that Gonzaga demanded that Randy Bennett quit playing home exclusive non conference games and start scheduling road games against P 5 competition so that Gonzaga would not get dragged down so badly in the net for dance seeding.
As for the argument that Gonzaga is a WCC darling. Yes, they are. the provide over 50% of the WCC funding by their winning deep into the dance and conference sharing. I don’t believe in conspiracy. just look at the recruiting classes. BYU is never anywhere near a top 40 recruiting class. Gonzaga is always a top 5 or better. I think that answers just about every question about who the WCC champs will be year in and out.
Is Mark Few a hall of famer coach? Can’t think of any coach in America that is active today that is better. Would Gonzaga rule the old WAC or MTN? Dud, yes
It’s easy to figure out. How many times did BYU finish second in the WCC when Gonzaga finished first? Four times.
Since BYU began competing in the WCC, Gonzaga has made five Sweet Sixteens, two Elite Eights, and two Final Fours. During that same period, the MWC has played in three Sweet Sixteens and lost all three. In addition, Saint Mary’s has played in the tournament five times while BYU was in the WCC but has failed to play beyond the second round.
If you want to play woulda, coulda, shoulda and feel good about BYU basketball, then we could say
BYU shoulda stayed in the MWC so it coulda played in more NCAA/NIT tournaments and that woulda stopped fans from complaining…probably not.
Yes, and that is exactly my point. Likewise, by stating the number of times Gonzaga made it to the sweet 16 is great but they also didn’t make it 7 times and had some pretty average teams then as well, especially the first few years after Jimmer left. Look, the only point I am arguing is that BYU was good enough to win the WCC at least ONCE and they never did. You are stating that it is because Gonzaga was so dominating, which is partly true but not entirely. If it was entirely true then I would digress. I watched every regular season and tournament game BYU played, including the games against Gonzaga and I am not convinced the officials had absolutely nothing to do with the results. You are claiming that it was, unequivocally, the dominance of Gonzaga that resulted in BYU NEVER winning the WCC and honestly, not coming close even once in the WCC tournament. I don’t agree with that scenario, just like I doni’t agree with the scenario of Kansas having dominated the Big 12 in similar fashion, without some help from the officiating.
If you are, then okay. If you honestly believe that BYU has been officiated and treated the same as any other team in the WCC for the past 12 years then okay. There is really no point discussing it further.
So then… BYU is good enough to beat Gonzaga on their home floor regular season but never quite good enough to win the conference OR the wcc tournament because of those incredible recruiting classes? Are you talking about the past 5 years or the past 12 years? Are you talking about the year prior to BYU entering the WCC when they destroyed Gonzaga in the ncaa tourney? When exactly did this recruiting class dominance begin or take place. If so, then you have to likewise state that BYU has always had fair and unbiased officiating whenever they played Gonzaga in a tournament game because they’ve never beaten them in that scenario.
I don’t see how anyone with any degree of basketball acumen can say that. I’m trying to be objective here. I never fished with Mark Few but I admit he is a great recruiter and coach. If that is enough to get him some important calls in a critical point of a game in the WCC then so be it. I can’t accept or acknowledge that it was fair and unbiased and that BYU was never good enough to win at least once. Maybe I am not seeing the games the way I think I do sometimes.
Inaccurate in your depiction. Conspiracies are not scripted. If you honestly believe BYU has been officiated fairly and unbiased and there isn’t one official who has ever tried to stick it to the Cougars then say it. Many of us know there are specific individuals who have done so repeatedly and others who enjoy being the guy who put BYU in their place, whatever place that is. Everyone on this board has seen it for themselves and said as much but apparently have forgotten all those times in the past 12 years. Selective memory in this thread…
Interesting how I am willing to accept the perspective and opinion of others and at least consider it.
Jim, I AGREE that officiating can be biased. There is no doubt about that in any conference with any team (BYU in this case) that park their car in your parking spot. BYU was NEVER supposed to be a part of the WCC. The football fiasco created this predicament. When Utah and TCU left the MTN, BYU HAD to keep up or become another casualty. So they go Indy and our other sports could not stay in the Mtn. Personally I loathed Craig Thompson so much, I was good with the divorce. That left our BBall and Olympic sports out in the cold, WCC comes to the rescue. Nobody liked where our basketball team landed, Not Rose, Not the players, Not anyone in the WCC so yeah, there was big resentment on the WCC’s behalf, and so there should be.
Gonzaga was a destination for talent LONG before BYU showed up.
How Gonzaga became a powerhouse basketball school | krem.com great read
How Gonzaga became America’s most polarizing college basketball program - SBNation.com even better read!
the point here is that Dan Fitzgerald got Gonzaga on the map. Dan Monson took Gonzaga to the NCAAs but like so many mid major coaches do, the get a big payday to go to a P5 and the program sinks back to obscurity. In this case, Mark Few took over and when the big offers came by, he stayed.
I have personally fished with Few so I have first hand info about why he stayed at Gonzaga. Few loves to fish more than he loves money, short answer. Spokane is the epicenter for a fishing junkie. Just how much does he love his passion? I ran into him on a river the day after he won a final 32 and a day before he won his sweet 16.
Sorry for the long response. Gonzaga was a powerhouse 10 years before BYU showed up. They were playing the UCLA’s and Dukes of the world long before BYU even heard of the words, “WCC”. And they will continue to be playing is sweet 16’s and final 4’s while BYU dreams of the one time Danny Ainge or Jimmer got us far into the dance. That is what recruiting classes do for you.
I calls it as I see it
In the end all I am claiming is that some well placed biased officiating has been a significant contributing factor to the result of BYU not winning a single conference or tournament title during their time in the WCC. I believe they had teams that were good enough to beat St. Mary’s and/or Gonzaga to do it at least one time. Had that happened, even once, I don’t think I would be making the claim or having this discussion.
Based on your reply, I believe there is some agreement on your part. The hopper can’t bring himself to agree with that possibility because it isn’t in his DNA but I’m not too concerned about that. Just to revisit one last point, one significant reason BYU beat Gonzaga in the tournament the year before they entered the WCC is that they played a fair, balanced officiating game on a neutral court and were simply the better team. It is unfortunate that this never happened come WCC tournament time because they did it in the regular season a few times, including on the Zags home floor, proving that it was possible, just never likely because of the things you mentioned and the points I have been harping on for decades.
100% agree. There is bias when it comes to officiating. To me, it is much more then the WCC, there is true resentment, not just with officiating, when it comes to the church vs. the world. We stand for something and while some people get it, most of the world would confuse our stand with “being holier the thou”. I have seen most of this planet, it is not so different then how the world sees America…America stands for something while the rest of the world sees us as being “better” then others just because we are Americans. Sees us as entitled when we have freedoms that others only wish they could have. They, the rest of the world, cannot comprehend what life in America is like because in their heart of hearts, they don’t believe that we are really free or that we can get rid of crooked politians. The have nots will always tear down the haves, it is human nature.
Well, there was that Jimmer year where we could have and gone deep to maybe the final four. But, one of our players got ousted from BYU for a time. Then, there was the fab 5 that some left after a year and others had mental challenges and quit. And this year we could have taken down GU if 3 starters weren’t suspended a game. Then, the injury bug and other internal stuff. Was all that part of the conspiracy too? But at last, it’s much easier to blame the nose and gang.
My opinion is that blaming officials for extended disappointments is low hanging fruit. Easy pickins. Our challenges are anything but easy pickins. Such are most conspiracies as well. Your assessments are more in-depth and accurate.
I can’t find it but I think it was you that said first to 70 points wins
over on Portandia post. My reasoning was that LMU was the only team to beat both GU and SMC. Portland was ranked 212 mostly because of their offal defense., LMU is ranked #123 and can defend so I lowered it by 10. I also thought that Williams would have a good game whereas Portland had much taller guards and stymied Williams.
Lastly, Shelton was key to defend, we have Spencer, Saunders and Johnson.
Even if BYU finds some way to make it to the final, if they are playing Gonzaga it won’t happen. This is a year when Gonzaga has not looked that great, similar to a few seasons over the past decade, but it won’t matter in the end…
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:-/~zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Question. Was the nose one of the refs against LMU? Nothing obvious in that game.
If they get passed SM odds are high they will lose to GU. It will be their 4th game in what 5 days? GU 2 days in a row. Tough to win 4 straight. Reffing will be a minimal factor. In fact, the WCC conspirators should WANT BYU to win the tourney - 3 teams in Tourney is way better than 2. $$$$ Keep your eye out for a couple of Houston Astros on the sidelines!
(not a shot JCoug, just trying to be funny)
Nose wasn’t one of the referees. Refs were Shawn Lehigh, Bill Vinovich, Rick Batsell.
It’s okay to be funny. Jim’s non-structured conspiracy theories are funny 