When will we be willing to tell it like it is?

I have been trying to do this for years on this board, yet there are very few who believe me or are at least willing to consider my observations and opinions. I understand why nobody wants to believe my Gonzaga comments, even though there is plenty of observable proof. I understand why nobody wants to accept the fact that Division 1 college basketball is not the same as Utah high school basketball. I understand that players and fans want to believe the BYU basketball team is better than they really are. I understand the fans don’t always want to hear the truth, that they want to believe it isn’t true.

I understand all of these things. What I don’t understand is when fans continue to believe all of those things, even when the evidence shows something different.

Honestly, I don’t intend to be negative even if it appears or sounds that way. My efforts are sincere and genuine. I want the TEAM to be successful. I don’t care what happens to the LP3. In fact, if that term is never used again it will not be too soon.

This could have been one of the worst losses in BYU program history. Is anyone else willing to tell it like it is? or are we going to continue to pretend all is well in happy valley?

I do not know how to evaluate program history.
But for the Rose era, no question. Simply one of the worst losses.

You are quite on spot with your comment. Rose has always struggled with accountability on the court, and it hurts the team. Sometimes guys need to sit, sometimes starters need to come off the bench until they get the point.

Right now this team has close to zero of that magic dual elixir called compatibility and cohesiveness. We basically have 5 guys playing one on one street ball on offense, each hoping someone does something good (there are occasional exceptions, I admit, so this is for the most part), and on defense, this unit doesn’t adjust to each other well at all. And never mind rebounding - outside of Mika a big mess because of lazy position and effort.

Absolutely true, those of us outside of the Utah bubble have seen the flaws of placing all your eggs in one basket approach. Coaching hires, lazy recruiting, and this is the result. Don’t worry though, we will still win 20 games, not make the tournament, and fans will still say wait till next year and these LP3 guys will save the day.

Uh i’m not in the Utah bubble and they were pegged with having a great recruiting class and not by Utah blue kool-aid guzzlers. So far as lazy recruiting goes -doesn’t compute. As far as under achieving-selfish play-bad decision making-over expecting fans -i’ll give a thumbs up

So are you saying that there is no connection between recruiting and results? It seems like that is what I am reading.

Are there other schools where they have 6 top 100 recruits and lose to teams that aren’t even ranked in the top 300 (Pomeroy) ?

Dang… I keep forgetting that the LP3 are taking BYU to the final four.

My bad…

Nah-not what I’m saying at all. Schools recruit the highest ranked players they can possible get. Duke got 5 of the top 20 from last year. Doesn’t mean it translates to a final four or that they aren’t going to have 5 or 6 losses either, even to a team with a losing record. If you take Frank Jackson from none other than Lone Peak-right now he is starting for Duke and has been number one or two in scoring the last couple of games. The difference is-if FJ played the way Haws or Emery play-he would never see minutes except in garbage time, but it’s a moot point-they would never be allowed to do that. So put responsibility where it lies-I’ll let you figure that one out. Maybe

I’d be interested to know if there was another program who’s top recruits all come from the same high school a few miles from the university. From
what I saw if them in HS, and since BYU, there is a clear difference in the ones who came to BYU, and the others on that list of 100 that went elsewhere. But still, they are good players but the lack of talent around them, or the poor decisions to let better talent sit or transfer may be in play with the LP3

KC I don’t really have the answer to that, and I hate to say one way or another if I’m not sure. I would guess in the larger basketball meccas that schools like Syracuse or DePaul probably recruit top players heavily from NY and Chicago, but that’s just supposition on my part. The thing about LP, is they really seemed like they played a nationwide schedule which most high school teams don’t get to do. Having seen Jackson, Mika, Emery, and Haws play, I can’t help but see their talent, but you look at the kids playing for Kentucky, and most of the ACC schools, they have this incredible athleticism that I have a hard time comparing BYU’s kids to. But these incredible athletic teams do get beat occasionally by the Gonzaga or the Princeton’s of the world. BYU is typically a hard recruit for even great lds athletes ie- Parker, Jackson. I question in the past why they didn’t recruit more foreign players, especially frontliners. Apparently they felt secure in their plans and it may still workout for them, but it’s a little shakey start. I don’t necessarily think it was lazy recruiting, probably more like unrealistic expectations from fans, coaches and players. You could throw much of the blame on Rose, but then I remember the pre-Rose Era and nobody wants that again. Most of the posting done here is guess work, facilitated by fan emotional bias. Usually everyone is a little right and a little wrong. Good to have you back!

Here are the box scores for the games UVU played this year. First observation I had was that if you were scouting UVU, you could see they love to put up 3pt shots. UVU had put up 43 3pt shots twice already this season. Thus, you had better plan on defending the 3pt line. Rose gets film of other teams so I am sure he had to know he would have to defend the 3 pt line. Surprisingly, BYU continues to struggle with the 3pt shot. Gonzaga beat UVU by 22 pts so BYU can get an idea of how good GU is this year. GU held UVU down on 3pt attempts and percentage. Gonzaga didn’t shoot a lot of 3pt shots but they shot over 40% which is good. Gonzaga, like BYU scored a lot of points in the paint.

Overall, BYU was poorly prepared and didn’t defend the 3pt line. This is a coaching issue in my opinion.UVU has shot 73-197 on 3pt shots for 37% on the year. They typically would have made 14-37 against BYU if they shot 37% from 3pt line. BYU would have been in the game had UVU shot its average. Finally, if you look at St. Marys games this year, they have shot up to 43 3pt shots in a game but normally more like 25 3pt shots taken. They have had games where they shot 50% of their 3 pt shots and a few games where they have shot in the 30s. The point is, if BYU wants to beat St. Marys this year they need to defend the 3 pt shot. That is why it is so surprising to me that BYU was so unprepared for UVU. Its not like we haven’t played good 3 pt shooting teams on a regular basis.

how could you read it any other way. We all saw it. I could take 5 church ball guys and defend the 3 better then we saw in the UVU game. If Rose squanders this recruiting class, he won’t last 2 years. defense is 50% of the game.

Glenn, thanks for the research! Looks pretty obvious when the numbers are in front of you. I cannot imagine another team in America–including High School and CYA league teams–looking worse in zone defense than BYU does, and we played a lot of zone vs UVU. It is shocking how bad we are defensively. Hard to even describe. We are stacked with more talent than ever before, and a week ago I’d have said I thought we had a team that could reach the sweet 16. Now we likely have to win the WCC tourney–which we all know is nearly impossible–to even make the field. I think Coach Rose has a lot to answer for, and now we will see what he does to earn the big bucks.

could it be that Rose let these kids lose to get their attention? There is such a thing as elite players thinking they know more than the coach. Just a thought.

I know a loss like this can get coaches fired. I noticed that Pomeroy immediately gave BYU 2 more losses on his probability W/L column. What will you wager that we stop seeing the hero ball from here on out.

Not a chance Rose let these kids lose. This is college basketball where one loss could define a decision whether you advance to the tournament or not. I find the idea ludicrous

I just threw it out there because I saw no effort to change the poor defense going on out there. Rose just sat there

I would have sat those puppies down and played Guinn, Shaw, Aytes, Bryant (although he is guilty of trying to do too much), Frampton. Let em know that if they don’t put effort on D, they don’t play

Yeh I apologize if that sounded blunt. I agree something needed to be done. I’m not really sure what. BYU was in the game for the most part, so you don’t want to jeopardize a chance for the win, but a point needs to be made somehow. The problem as I see it, is BYU doesn’t have much talent defensively outside of Mika, Childs, and on occasion Emery, so the solution I see is trying to run a flawless, ball movement type of offense and a disciplined zone cover defense. The out of control offense tends to lead to defensive problems. Thanks for your post

Haws may be painfully skinny but he can play strong D when he wants. Guinn is an asset on both sides of the ball. Davis never has bothered with D but with Childs breathing down his neck for time, maybe an ol dog can learn. Rose can play strong d and is so good at the point. I just see this as a Coaching problem Rose has suffered from for years and needs to let Lewis take over more or forget about O for a while and concentrate on the obvious.

I find it ironic that Rose suffers the worst loss of his career with arguably the most talented squad of his tenure. I do think it was a wake-up call for the players but even more so for Coach Rose. I will be surprised if they don’t play USU with a lot more focus. USU has some very talented players so they can’t be taken lightly.

I have never considered any of the players hopeless-I start feeling that Davis is and then he will have a breakout game and make me feel stupid. I think we could have used Chatman this year. He seemed like an athletic, heady ball player. I agree with you about Haws his best days are all ahead of him. We will see what happens tomorrow . Pivotal game with regards to the tourney as I see at least two losses on the road at Gonzaga and SM

You mean the same thing we saw all season long last year? What is going to keep it from happening again? Even if BYU wins their next 10 games, losing to UVU and giving up 114 points on their home floor is as bad as it gets.

So many of us (not me but I’m one of you guys) had delusions of grandeur to start the season, then the delusions of denial came into play. I am beginning to think everyone is just plain delusional. I guess it’s okay if you don’t know any better but I know you guys are smarter than that.

I will be shocked if this team does anything noteworthy this season.