BYU needs to start building their ncaa tournament resume'

Very interesting perspective on the last post on the link. Good read thx

Well, I must give Haws credit for what is his best game if the season so far. He had a plus in the plus minus column for the first time this season. Hopefully he will keep up the progress. I am not down in Haws, just hate to see all the eggs in one basket without giving playing time to others that aren’t rusty with mission stuff. This is the lineup that it appears Rose is going to live or die with. I really hope that all of you that are convinced the LP3 (now LP4) will rise up and save the day are correct over the long run because it will be s long season with some key transfers at the end of it doesn’t work out. Rose has chosen the highest risk option, which I don’t agree with… But he is the man now!

The sad fact about the team is that while we have to have good post play, it will also take are least decent play from the perimeter to win against above average teams. We better pay that Bryant gets healthy because he is the only chance we have of getting two consistent 3 pt shirts on the floor together. My prediction is that we will lose 6 games in the WCC and go to the NIT and maybe win 1 or 2 games. Transfers will attend the last part of the season and our recruiting will be shot to pieces in Colorado and WA State for the next 4 years.

Possibility, not fact, but we could lose some more guys. I do think that both Leifson and Beo stick around. Beo will be greatly used when Rose leaves. we always need good PG talent. Nelson certainly did “get away” and as a coach, Rose is probably kicking himself but you don’t know if it was the scholly nonrenewal that finally motivated him to hit the weights and improve.

LP3 is the reason why all these ESPN top 100 kids signed and you just can’t bench them if they are in a slump…you can cut their minutes down as we both have suggested but in the end, Rose will live and die with this rotation. Having watched these guys for many years now, I do know what they are capable of doing so I am not too worried.

LOL! He does exaggerate a lot :slight_smile:

I wonder about GU and SMU. Do they have many players that have to concentrate on marriage, kids, church callings and other things many of our players have to? And does that added effort take its toll with these young kids?

:confounded: and the list of excuses goes on and on and on. :confounded:

Well done grasshopper, well done.:disappointed:

You know what’s interesting? Every time I talk about something that I see with the team or the way they are playing, I’ll be darned if there aren’t several articles that pop up and say the exact same thing.

The problem I see going forward is this. Emery and Haws are going to make or break this team over the next 3 seasons. Rose is not going to see if there are others who could take a primary role in the teams’ success. It is the LP3, and apparently 4 now that Frampton is getting more minutes than Beo Leifson and Dastrup combined. They are the ones that will determine whether BYU makes the trip to the final four that so many have predicted. :weary: The real question is - do they have the ability to adjust their own game for the betterment of the team. If so then maybe BYU has a chance to do something because I do believe they have the talent, I just don’t know if they have the willingness.

Somebody needs to help them recognize that they aren’t playing high school basketball anymore (though that will be tough in the wcc gyms) and their skills and game must evolve to realize true success. Also, there are other players on the team that can contribute… I just don’t know if Rose or his LP4 prima donnas will be willing to accept a back seat once in awhile.

Time will tell I guess…

I think it has an affect on them. We don’t live and breathe basketball. Our players have actual lives. Added pressures and focus. Why do you think it wouldn’t have an affect?

Well, maybe they will feel right at home in the small gyms and play great! Let’s see if some of the good play from Haws carries over to Saturday’s game.

I think we should see if some of the good play of the TEAM carries over… of course you do realize that Colorado is more like USC, not Weber State, right?

Everyone keeps worrying about the play of a particular individual… ie. Emery looked bad or Haws isn’t hitting his shots or Mika had an off night and it is always the same 3. When are we going to start being concerned about the overall teams’ play? That is what really matters. :unamused:

Yes I agree-there is work to be done. Haws needs to bulk up a bit. But the key is, to me, Childs and Dastrup. Not this year maybe next or 2 years from now. I’m bad with names but the kid from Bountiful should help and Beo should get better but from what I see, BYU doesn’t get many walk over games this year and Mika will have off games occasionally so the more playing time Dastrup gets-the better and we have got to have somebody that can knock down mid-range jumpers and 3 point shots and I don’t care if it’s Beo, Leifson or Lp4 -someone -unless Bryant can get healthy. Right now there is a pretty good gap between Gonzaga and BYU

St Mary’s loses to UT-ARLINGTON by 14 at home

The problem is that when we play good the shots aren’t going down. The shooting percentage of the team minus Mika sucks!

Here you go again. Safety in numbers. Hillary thought her main stream media was proving to be her savior because there are so many of them. And they were saying she was right about everything. So far, I’ve been right about everything and I’m mostly a lone wolf crying from the wilderness :sunglasses:

I know this is a forum where we all get to be armchair analysis and we clearly know more than the coaches or any one in the athletic administration. After all we are in every practice and behind every closed door discussion with each coach and player, right? We know about their family situations and their aspirations better than a coach or player knows himself, right?

The truth is we don’t and we get to sling around wild theories and assumptions and postulate their truthfulness normally based on anything but fact. That is what these forums are for and about. Fans get pontificate with great exactitude and the only retribution is the disagreement of other forum members.

I don’t believe the coaches are playing politics and that BYU is an awful, terrible institution where sports are based on some mythical political agenda. I believe our coaches try and develop the talent and win the best they believe they can.

I don’t believe Nelson was ever the best player on the floor and I thought he was often “not so awesome” while he did have some bright moments. I don’t believe we know exactly why Nelson left. If it was because Mika was coming back and Coach Rose was such a meany for saying that then I say adios Nelson. I rather have Mika any day. Good for Nelson if he found a better fit at UVU. If he couldn’t become that same player at BYU with Pope as his coach then how did it some evil political plot once they changed uniforms?

I believe the kids that played at Lone Peak were good…very good and they developed a great chemistry enough to beat amazingly athletic, well funded, well established, and well coached teams with very deep legacies. Now we find it our duty to mock and belittle those players and the BYU Coaches because they mutually decided it was good to have them play at BYU. I know. We should have forced the top players from Duke, UCLA, and Kentucky to play at BYU right? Little secret…those guys never have and never will come to BYU. The Lone Peak kids were nationally acclaimed and if they went to UVU or God forbid Utah instead and turned out to be good on those other teams then we would have been griping about politics and egg on faces, couldn’t even get nationally recognized talent from are own back yard, etc. I for one am glad to have them on the team. Mika has been awesome and I would take him. Emery has great hustle, can may layups in the trees, has about as many steals and assists and anyone, is rock solid from the line and can be great from the 3pt. He has been a little spotty there lately but I would still take him. Haws, or as I affectionally yell at the TV when he has the ball, “Ginger Ghost”, has potential. He has played very well and very poorly. I would probably take him. I wonder how the Sages would react if he were to transfer to UVU and become an outstanding player? Would they argue he needed more game time to develop like they did for Nelson? Or would they keep quiet because they are the same ones calling for him to get off the floor now? I can’t remember but when Nelson was stinking it up on the court and in foul trouble did those same Sages want to loose the game and keep Nelson for the practic or did they want him off the floor? I am pretty sure none of us wanted Worthington in.

What little I have seen of Dastrup on the floor has been horrible. The Sages said he was awesome but my eyes see something entirely different. I think perhaps he needs to get in better shape, play better in practice and then PERFORM well on the court game time. I am not ready to pull Mika or Childs or Davis just to give Dastrup practice. I say let him practice at practice and prove himself there and then do something worthwhile on the court. Some may call that politics but I call that a reasonable approach to earning more game time.

Who is the Beo kid and what has he done in practice or in his few minutes on the court to be the best and worthy of replacing Haws or someone else?

Guinn hit a couple of nice threes in an early game (not so much since then) and he shows great hustle. I am not sure he deserves much more court time yet. If he starts hitting more threes again, perhaps.

Davis…sometimes fantastic, sometimes not. Do the Sages want him to develop on the floor or ride the pine? How would it be different if his name was Nelson? I think he has come a long way from last year to this year but elements of his game need improvement, especially passing. He sure found the right spot of the floor many times against Weber. He is also making a lot more of those near the rim baskets than he did last year.

Sorry for being grumpy. Just felt it was my turn to sling it around the forum and poke fun at some of the arguments.

Merry Christmas and may our boys and their coaches find the chemistry to play great team ball.

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I believe the kids that played at Lone Peak were good…very good and they developed a great chemistry enough to beat amazingly athletic, well funded, well established, and well coached teams with very deep legacies.
Why not bring in Shane Shumway in the mix so that way we have LP5 on the same floor. I know he plays football and why not get him after this bowl game along with Corbin Kaufusi :smile:

I cringed when I hear Worthington but I better be good so Santa Cosmo won’t poach me :laughing:

Merry Christmas and Go Lady Cougars this weekend volleyball and Go Cougargs tomorrow night BB. :smile_cat:

It would take forever to respond to all of the things you said. I agree with some of what you wrote, but probably less than half of it. I am glad you made mention of “being grumpy” because that helped a lot. I know that, if not the main person, I am one of those you are responding to. I understand you don’t agree with a lot of what I say. I am okay with that. So have your comments changed my perspective? maybe a little but not much. So to rehash and give perspective I offer the following once again.

  1. BYU is D1 level basketball. It isn’t high school anymore. Those aren’t noodle armed, zit faced kids out there running up and down the court. Those kids that LP3 beat up on are men now and their game has evolved.
  2. Dastrup has been horrible? and you are right, we have seen very little. His season is being determined early and without much opportunity. Kaufusi (why he was allowed to play football and basketball both is beyond my comprehension) is coming back and Dastrup is done. That is why he has turned into the bench cheerleader now. It’s mind boggling but maybe he leaves because of it. His stars and top 100 rank don’t seem to matter.[quote=“GTwo, post:35, topic:7166”]
    I wonder how the Sages would react if he were to transfer to UVU and become an outstanding player? Would they argue he needed more game time to develop like they did for Nelson?

Haws has almost as many minutes in 9 games than Nielson or Bartley did in an entire season before they left. The argument is weak because Haws is playing way more than he should. Maybe if he was getting 8 minutes a game you could argue the point… :unamused:[quote=“GTwo, post:35, topic:7166”]
I think he has come a long way from last year to this year but elements of his game need improvement, especially passing.

What has Davis shown that make you think he has “come a long way”? He is still soft, his rebound numbers are not great and he turns the ball over regularly. What is it about his game that has come a long way? better FT%?[quote=“GTwo, post:35, topic:7166”]
I don’t believe the coaches are playing politics

No need to take an extreme perspective but this is absolutely going on to some degree. I hope this team comes together at some point. I still don’t understand the excuses for why they can’t seem to yet, but I have some ideas that nobody wants to hear…

G2, You sound as if you are part of the sports administration at BYU. Santiago? Some of the posts in this tread are written by people who have attended practice and seen these players up close in college and HS. Again, to my knowledge, no one on this blog is saying that the LP players shouldn’t have been recruited or shouldn’t see the court at BYU. Where did you see that info? If pointing out that Haws had a decent game against Weber … which now makes him 3 for 15 in his last 15 three point attempts, but doesn’t deserve to be playing more minutes than every other player on the BYU roster … then you are probably looking at the reason you are grumpy. Here is a take that almost everyone who saw LP play during the mythical National Championship can agree with: One of the two biggest reasons that LP played so well was its defense. A large component of that was Shumway, who could guard and shut down most of the best players on the other teams. Frampton also helped in that arena as did other LP players like the one playing down at UVU and currently shooting a much higher % than Emery and Haws. Defense, like it or not is 50% of the game. However, Emery and Haws were not ready for the defensive demands of D-1 bb. I base that solely on their BYU court performance year to date. So, if you are advocating playing them 34 to 38 minutes a game because of their “history” you are part of the problem in the program. If a player gives up more points than he makes, has more TO"s than assists, doesn’t really rebound well, isn’t a even an average 3 pt shooter and is a hot head on the floor … and you and others still think that a suggestion of less playing time is akin to being disloyal to BYU … you are part of the problem, not the solution.

I am going to take up for Beo and Leifson based on your comment of “Who is this Beo kid” that you obviously don’t care for. You don’t seem to have a problem making a comment like that based on Beo being given about 1 min of playing time per game, but you have a problem with those of us that see Haws for 30 plus minutes a game and have actual statistics on how he is doing. Interesting take on what allows you to have your knowledge and what doesn’t allow others to have knowledge enough to even comment on this board. So, Mr “I support coach Rose unconditionally,” Who had the highest assist average for their HS career out of Beo, Haws, Emery, Calvert, or Leifson? Same question on points per game? Same question on rebounds per game? Same question on TO’s per game, same question on 2 pt shooting % and same question on 3 pt shooting %? Would you be surprised that Emery and Haws didn’t lead in any of those areas? They didn’t and only Emery tied for 2nd in one category.

We will get to see Calvert compete head to head with Emery and Haws next year. That will be a telling interaction. We will all get to see it and not have to guess. However, those of you on this thread condemn the comparisons of Emery and Haws to Leifson and Beo in the Blue/While scrimmage where we had an extended look at all four players on the court for a lot of minutes. The coaches set it up so that there was direct competition even though if they had to do it over again, I doubt they would… Haws and Emery were taken to the wood shed (particularly Haws) by Beo and Leifson. Haws was so frustrated that he threw Beo to the floor. Beo and Leif hammered them in points, assists, and the TO dept. It was a surprise to everyone except those that had watched the AAU circuit and had seen the competition in HS were pac 12 players were burned by Beo for 3 years. Beo isn’t as flashy as Haws or Emery. He is a very unselfish player. The team is made better by his presence. Throw out the scrimmage results, say all the Haws and Emery supporters … doesn’t mean anything! If Haws and Emery had been the ones to light up the other side … I bet the H and E supports wouldn’t be so quick to throw out the results. So, in response to your question about who Beo is, I would say that he is the guy on the team that is getting the short end of the stick from coach Rose. Why? Well, it isn[t based on “history” of HS performance and it evidently isn’t based on head to head match ups in televised scrimmages … and it isn’t that Beo has stunk it up in the 8 min of playing time he has been given for the entire season. Why is calling for Rose to put Beo in the game and give him 1/3 of Haw’s minutes such an offending question or suggestion to you and other Haws supporters? What are you afraid of? I say that you and others know that Haws isn’t playing at a D-1 level (except vs WSU) so I say it is politics. You say it isn’t. You have no more knowledge than I do to back up your assertion. I have at least some numbers to say that Beo deserves playing time in comparison to the output of “history” and head to head match ups between the two players. The more losses BYU absorbs because of poor offensive play, TO’s and terrible defense … the louder the calls will be for coach Rose to explain that his decision making wasn’t based on politics. I believe he knows this and that is the reason that Beo may not see the court in a meaningful way this year. What if he comes in for 15 min and is a stabilizing influence, scores, assists, and makes his teammates better? For heaven sakes, when Rose puts Frampton in the game and excludes the players mentioned by other posters … how would you explain the Beo playing time decision? Haw’s should be coming off the bench this year if playing time was awarded based on performance. It is either politics or thick hard headedness that is the driving force behind Roses decisions on playing time. I don’t think Rose is that dumb, so it leads me to politics. We will see what Colorado brings. My over arching concern is that we get better as a team, not who is a better player in this example of Haws and Beo. I don’t really care which is better, but I do care which one OR if both can help this team. I see no logical reason that Haws should get 99% of the playing time against a kid who clearly outplayed him in the scrimmage and has a history of better numbers against bigger competition. Fairness measured by bb statistics is unbiased. Let the fairness begin!

If Rose doesn’t give anyone but Haws playing time and we continue to lose games that we should win and Haws plays average to poor, Rose is going to be on the hot seat like never before. If you don’t think there was political fallout from Chatman leaving, you have your head buried in the sand. BTW, he is now shooting a much higher % from 3 than Haws or Emery after being given consistent minutes. See what a little playing time gives to talented kids? Do we need to discuss the defensive attributes of Jordan vs the LP duo?

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See, now isn’t this fun? We get to sling around opinions like fact and make wild assumptions using every logical fallacy in the book. We get to be passionate about it too which helps us know we are alive. I like it.

I clearly exaggerated some points to draw out the discussion

Thanks Jim…you know I love and respect you. I still laugh about that signed Jake Heaps photo. It was totally awesome to meet your boy in the mission field a couple of times. Great kid.

THawk…sorry we haven’t met and sorry if I find your comments hilarious. You are a master of the straw man argument. If I said, did, or thought half of the things you ascribe to me I wouldn’t like me. I love your passion though. Next time I am in the greater Ventura area and if you are there, I’d be happy to buy you lunch too. Maybe I can get to Utah and get a signed photo of Haws for you? I have to warn you though. I am not a coach, player or part of the administration so by definition I cannot be part of the problem or even the solution. I am just a fan like you.

Back to the fun:

I don’t get the politics argument. I generally understand the literal definition of politics as the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power. I don’t see how the coaches decisions to play and try and develop certain players over others as an evil way to achieve power. I think the coaches achieve power by winning and I believe they are not politician-like seeking some unnamed power but coaches trying to use what knowledge and skill they have in working with the carbon units they have to win games. This is not HS BBall. I have observed that if they get the skill sets and the schemes right and win a lot they are good, smart, and successful but when the skill sets and schemes don’t sufficient or quality wins then we look for dirt and proclaim politics are the reason the all knowing fan base favorites are on the bench. I disagree with this approach. Perhaps the coaches chose poorly, perhaps the players over perform in practice, perhaps a million other things. Perhaps I am too naive to understand how the coaches are playing politics instead of trying to develop a winning program.

I am also less that happy with all the harsh and negative feelings for the Lone Peak kids. They were very good against overmatched competition. While past performance is no indicator of future success, especially in different environment, I think the negative banter thrown their way is overdone. I think it is time we get over where they went to HS.

Good for the guys that left the program and are playing better elsewhere. Many don’t find greener grass but glad these guys did. As much as attending a practice or two or hearing a rumor from a friend makes a person all knowing, I tend not to believe it. The way I look at it, right or wrong, is the kid that left either didn’t have the guts, ability, perseverance to earn a starting role or did not sufficiently impress with what floor minutes he got. Then there is the emotional part where players and other players and coaches don’t click. Happens all the time. Happens most everywhere. I don’t impute some special negative ability on BYU that is significantly different than anywhere else. Others do. I don’t believe Rose is going to get fired because the previously just OK Chatman quit the team, worked on his 3pt shooting and is playing better elsewhere. He had plenty of minutes to showcase his talents and he did OK. At BYU he was 38% from the floor, 34% from 3 and 70% in 359 minutes from the line doesn’t earn one super hero status. Funny Haws stats are 38%, 35% and 81% in 268 minutes yet we hate him although his scoring is the same or better. In the same time frame Emery was 43%, 38% and 85% respectively. I would take Emery every day. Maybe my head is in the sand?

Here is one variant of one of my favorite arguments due to it’s illogical and inconsistent application. “See what a little playing time gives to talented kids?” What I see here is we decide kids on the bench are more talented than kids on the floor because we know more than the coaches and maybe attended a practice or two. When the kid gets in the game and performs below expectations we then blame it on his playing time and we call it politics, favoritism, or whatever negative thing we can come up with as to why our grass is greener player is not getting time and not playing well. Then we make the argument if only he got consistent minutes he would be great and he deserves developing. Pause for a moment and think. Does this mean the player you want replace is not talent and not deserving of development? If the unfavored player is playing sub par shouldn’t he get development time just like the grass is greener player?

I think all of our kids are talented. One they get on the floor some have more success than others. I don’t think I am smarter than the coaches and thus I am not a habitual play the grass is greener player. However, we are fans and we have opinions and logic and fact doesn’t always apply or have to apply. That is why we sling it about here.

I haven’t attended a practice so I don’t know more than the coaches. I haven’t seen these kids play head to head. I have talked with Dave Rose and some of the coaches before. I have talked with several of the players before. It hasn’t made be clairvoyant enough to know which talented kids should have more time on the floor than others. I just watch the games. Only missed the UVU game this year. Only attended one game in person this year so far. Florida is not the best spot for seeing all BYU sports.

My opinion of the players:

Mika: Beast. Love his play. I don’t hate on him because he went to LP. I oddly am happy this LP kid came to BYU.

Emery: His shooting is off about 5% this year but he is up 10% at the line. I like this kid and his passion. Needs to use his head a bit more and square up more on this 3 shot. Even though he grew up in BYU’s back yard and played at LP I am glad he is on the team. In my opinion I haven’t seen any grass is greener players do anything to take his minutes.

Rose: Not sold on him yet. Seems to be the most steady hand at this position. Good at the FT but other shooting is horrible.

Guinn: Good hustle. Hit a few nice threes in an early game. Not so much since. I am not ready to elevate him to a starting role. 68% FT is not a great stat for a sharp shooter.

Childs: Love his play for being so young. He has some skills to tighten up but he seems like he could be not just good but great. Only 40% FT…that has to improve.

Aytes: Doing OK. Nothing much to say yet. Seems a bit more composed than last year.

Davis: I am going out on a limb here and say he is better because his FG% is up over 6% and his FT% is up almost 10%. Even though his minutes are down 21% his scoring output is down only 11%. His assists are about the same but his rebounding is down. I largely believe the rebounding is down because of others like Mika and Childs getting those rebounds so hard for me say this is a negative. So, yeah, I think Davis is playing better.

Dastrup: I was just very unimpressed with his couple minutes against Costal Carolina if I recall correctly. He has not had many minutes but I have seen nothing that tells me he should get more time over the other bigs. People have said on this board how amazing he is. I haven’t seen it yet so I have little to go on.

Beo: Don’t know him. He has only played 6 minutes and missed every shot he attempted to include one from the line. This is not enough to tell me he is uber better than Haws. I have no data points to give all the man love others want to give him. Not grass is greener to me.

Framption: Much like Beo in that he has not made a bucket yet even though he has 24 minutes. He has shown hustle is about all I can day. Not grass is greener to me.

Leifson: More time than Beo and Frampton combined by a whole minute. Stats are horrible but at least he made a couple of buckets. Not grass is greener to me.

Haws: The Ginger Ghost. The man we love to hate. 38% from the floor, 35% from 3, and 81% from the line. He as been way out of control, certainly inconsistent but also very good at times. I am not opposed to giving some of the grass is greener guys a few more minute when Haws is play out of control or having trouble finding the rim but unless those guys seize their opportunities and do great things with it, at this point still favor Haws getting plenty of minutes. After all is he not a talented player deserving of consistent minutes? When the grass is greener players do something special I say we give them more time. Perhaps if I attend a practice or two and had a friend of a friend that knew something I would feel different but I haven’t and I don’t. I did see a Youtube video of Haws knocking down threes at an incredible rate right of his mission. I have heard people closer to the team than I say TJ is more talented than Tyler. So at this point I don’t know who deserves game time development more than Haws but I favor him until someone else does something better with their minutes and yes, others should get a few more minutes.

I purposely did not discuss defense because other than steals it is very difficult to put an object assessment on that. Subjectively we can pontificate forever and prove very little. For example, when Jordan was at BYU he had 4 steals in 359 minutes but Haws has 12 in 268 and Emery has 15 is 284 this year. Yet as a fan we can insinuate with great bravado Jordan has much great defensive attributes than Haws and Emery. Maybe Jordan is better but the main objective stat for defense says Jordan is much worse than average. Heck Jimmer Fredette stole the ball almost 4 times more per minute played than Jordan did per minute. Maybe having my head in the sand increased my objective accuracy?

I too hope the Cougars find their chemistry and improve their consistency resulting in more Ws. They have good talent but everyone cannot get 25 minutes a night for obvious reasons. I wish the politicians, err, I mean the coaches the best in finding the best group of guys and best schemes to exceed our fandom expectations.

That is more than enough for now. Sucks when I get time off from work huh?