BYU vs. Gonzaga is not going well

If BYU is going to insist on shooting threes the entire game this isn’t going to end well. So is the GU defense controlling the game or is it just poor BYU play that has the Zags up by 10?

Someone besides KC and Fischer have got to contribute. No Kaufusi… no Davis… no Emery. Who is going to step up?

Any comments on the officiating? Seems like another “me first” crew that likes the theater and excitement of being the center of attention.

Well, we shot 31% from 3’s and 34% from 2’s. Not much difference. The thing is we had open 3’s on our home court. One more 3 or 2 more 2’s and we may have won. Missed layups and a few too many missed free throws. GU shot 45% and we shoot 32%. Both played good defense. But we just got down too far!
The referees were in poor position a lot. And not paying attention. Not much more to complain.

rushed shots and missed FTs by KC and Davis on front ends.

There was some forced shots when we get into the paint. But, there were some tear drops misses and short shots. And 70% is about what we can hope for with FT. We out rebounded them. We had more assists. We had way more shots than they did. We had less turnovers than they did (9). All the key areas we did better. But, not shooting percentage.

half of BYU’s shots were of the 3 point variety. Unless you are really hitting those shots, that won’t result in a good finish. 30% doesn’t get it done.

Also, how do 3 officials all miss the ball that was thrown out of bounds by Gonzaga? It happened near midcourt so it wasn’t like they shouldn’t have been seeing it. That play was near the beginning of GU’s big run to take a sizeable lead. It seemed as though BYU never recovered and just sort of struggled the rest of the way. Not an excuse, just an observation.

Bottom line is that if BYU hadn’t choked in some bad losses this season (Pacific, Pepperdine, Portland… something about teams that start with P) they would be right there with only two conference losses and a first place finish. It might be the difference between the ncaa and nit tourney.

Completely agree. No reason for those 3 loses.
Re-watching that play the official closest wasn’t watching it. And neither were the other 2. They should have gone to instant replay.

Another conference finals loss, how many is this. Wonder if UVa has an opening for a BB HC?

Two things I’d like to ask him:

  1. Why can’t we consistantly make layups and short shots except for KC?
  2. Why did Emery and KC have to play 40 minutes and tire out at the end of the game?

Okay, I know I shouldn’t whine about referees but I didn’t think they called a good game. If they were going to call ticky tack fouls on BYU, they needed to call them on Gonzaga too. Kaufusi was playing Sabonis much better this game versus the last game. He picked up his fourth foul and had to sit when he should have been out defending Sabonis. I hate it when the refs force changes in personnel. There is too much at stake in these games. There were other ticky tack fouls on Davis and Austin. Our front line of Kaufusi, Davis, and Austin all had four fouls. Seljaas, Emery had three and Fischer and KC had two for a team total of 22 fouls. On the Gonzaga side, their backup Center, Edwards, tweeked his knee and did not play. Gonzaga was down to only two big men, Sabonis and Wiltjer. If either of those two got in any foul trouble, Gonzaga would have had serious trouble. Remember that Sabonis fouled out in the first meeting between BYU and Gonzaga. So, BYU’s bigs picked up 4 fouls each with Davis, Kaufusi, and Austin playing 13, 23, and 12 minutes, respectively. What about Sabonis and Wiltjer? Sabonis and Wiltjer played 39 and 37 minutes, respectively and each picked-up only one foul while they shot 14 of their team’s 22 free throws. Gonzaga was called for only 13 fouls total. Gonzaga scored 20 points from the free throw line and BYU scored 12 points at the line. From my perspective, the difference was the fouls called and on whom. I’m not saying our bigs didn’t foul but how can their bigs play more than twice the minutes of any of our bigs and only pick up one foul?

Now that we already lost, go back and watch the game. Look and notice that we rarely got the ball into the bigs for a shot. Then notice how many more (double at least) times they got the ball to their bigs in the post. That’s a good reason why there was a foul discrepancy. Even when we drive to the basket, they weren’t fouling us except for one here and there. They didn’t need to because they know we don’t shoot layups very well. We missed at least 10 give me layups. And 4 others were blocked cleanly.

Now, does that mean the refs called a good game? No. Hawks is right about the traveling. But, we traveled too. And other miscues that refs missed. We picked up 4 fouls at the end when we needed it so the discrepancy isn’t that big.

None of that causes the loss. The 10 missed layups caused the lost.

Your analysis is like a conundrum. You can’t admit that everyone else might be correct or on to something because if you do then it puts you in a difficult position. This is evidenced by your comment that I am right about the traveling, followed immediately by the “but we traveled too” which has no basis in fact. When did a BYU player travel? They didn’t. Sabonis does it frequently, but his Dad played in the nba and he is awesome so he doesn’t travel… LOL.

Once again the conundrumic analysis is too simple and doesn’t allow anyone to see the bigger picture. You can’t go back and watch the game and ignore what Glenn (whom by the way pointed out EXACTLY what I did), Craig and many others stated. The officiating allowed Wiltjer and Sabonis to play the game exactly like they wanted to. Gonzaga only getting 13 fouls made a BIG difference.

Were the refs protecting the Gonzaga bigs? I really don’t have a problem with Wiltjer getting only one foul. On the season, he averaged 33.5 minutes per game and averaged just under two fouls. Okay, so he got half his normal fouls and played about 3.5 minutes more than he normally does. He is not a big fouler. But, how many fouls did he draw on us? Sabonis is a different story. He is a beast on the boards. He is aggressive. On the season, he averaged 3.2 fouls per game and played an average of 31 minutes. He played an extra 8 minutes last night and was called for less than one third of the fouls he normally gets called for. Sabonis had his normal 14 rebounds last night including 5 offensive boards but only 1 foul the whole night? What about the BYU side? For the season, the number of fouls per minute for Davis, Kaufusi, and Austin is 0.093, 0.17, 0.17, respectively. So, based on the number of minutes they played last night, Davis, Kaufusi, and Austin should have had 1.2, 3.9, 2.0 fouls, respectively. Kaufusi was right at his average but Davis had 3 times his normal fouls and Autin had 2 times his normal fouls for the minutes played. So, were the WCC refs protecting the Gonzaga bigs and nitpicking our bigs? It sure looks like it to me. Sure, there’s a chance that our players were actually fouling more than theirs but its more likely the refs were not calling the game the same way on both ends of the court.

They had to play 40 minutes because they kept BYU in the game, and because Austin, Kaufusi and Davis were in foul trouble all game long. Why did Wiltjer and Sabonis play 37 and 39 minutes? You are talking about the difference of a minute or two, not a particularly relevant question. Does that help you understand why the foul disparity is such a big factor?

Let me give you an example of one exchange that took place late in the game. Davis got the ball inside and was being guarded by Sabonis. With his back to Sabonis he pivoted right and then left and put up a left handed bank shot close to the basket (amazing he made it, right?) that went in. But on the play, he was knocked to the ground by Sabonis, no foul called. Sabonis collected the made shot, slammed the ball to the ground and then inbounded it and ran up court. What happened next was very telling to me. Sabonis posts up Davis and on the entry pass, Davis is whisteled for a foul because he reached in behind Sabonis to knock the ball away. That is the way it went all night long and it showed in that short exchange. Do I expect you to recognize and acknowledge what I am saying? No, I don’t, but others will. Even if you do acknowledge it, do I expect you to believe it had any bearing on the overall game? No, I don’t. But I, along with many others, believe it does. Davis can’t catch a break, while Sabonis was getting them all night long. That affects how a player is able to play the game. It affected Sabonis the first time he played BYU. He was a non factor and BYU won the game.

I know you won’t get it and that is okay because I know most of the rest of the guys here do get it.

There isn’t a bigger picture. Poor refs don’t translate into biased refs. Rose has the right way to deal with loses. He needs to solve issues that his team can control. But, this year, he didn’t have the players to do it with. He had a great KC, a potentially great Emery and a bunch of average players. How many short shots did Davis miss all year? Lots!!! Kaufusi is still learning the game. Fischer is an overachiever (how many layups did he hit the bottom of the rim?) Austin is a fill-in and who else?

We both agree that Rose made serious mistakes not playing the subs a lot more early on. But, with that, every game has to be won to get to the NCAAs. Next year, we will be deep with inexperience but a lot of talent. By the end of the season next year, we are going to be very good and very deep. Unless we have more players that are selfish and non-competitive and leave to play elsewhere.

When refs don’t call the game on both ends of the court, it is being biased. The only question is whether it is intentional or not. I just find it quite a coincidence that the back-up center (Edwards) got hurt on Saturday leaving Gonzaga shorthanded on bigs and then their bigs play the whole game with only one foul called on each while our bigs rack up 12 fouls. Maybe it wasn’t intentional but it did affect the outcome of the game.

LOL… this is the same rhetoric you give out at the end of EVERY season. Doesn’t it get old?

Davis was 2-3 last night shooting. How many “short shots” did he miss in this game? I saw him make a great “short shot” last night and get knocked to the floor by the softy sabonis, who of course didn’t get called for the foul.

You said “next year” twice in your last paragraph. What does that mean? I want to know because I believe you will be saying it again “next year”… LOL!

I don’t think you really know… it’s just more rhetoric. I have been saying for years now that it doesn’t matter what BYU does, Gonzaga will continue to be the league and/or tournament champions. That is a given that has been proven by history and the spanking that Jimmer gave the Zags the year before BYU entered the wcc.

Glenn… when this happens at the end of every season, it just might be intentional.

A couple of pleading comments from Few combined with a “few” F-bombs at key points in the game and the intention of the officiating becomes pretty clear.

Of course it affected the outcome of the game. This is the same thing we witness every season. I’ve seen it happen to other teams in the conference but it is especially focused when Gonzaga plays BYU.

I blame it on Jimmer… the year before BYU entered the wcc, the Cougars and Jimmer destroyed Gonzaga in the ncaa tournament. The wcc and Gonzaga have never forgotten that and neither have the officials.

A real question: Does BYU get shafted by the refs in every finals tournamemt, except the one Jimmer won? The Cougs have lost tournaments prior to Jimmer winning one. Has the refs screwed BYU out of wins in all those tournaments. Or is it coaching and / or not enough talented players. Again, questions, not statements. To disclose, I do think Rose may have reached his ceiling like Bronco did.

Interesting question you pose.

I don’t think the refs have screwed BYU out of winning conference tournament titles every time, just some of the time.

The things you have to look at are -

  1. Watch the game and see how the players are playing. See how the flow of the game is going.
  2. Watch to see if the calls are being issued in the same way for both teams. If they call something on one team, are they making that same call on the other team?
  3. Look at the stats after the game. Is there anything that stands out?
  4. Do your best to analyze all of the above and see if there is anything that might be responsible for the result.

I did all of these things and then I looked at the statistics. They were pretty even… so I looked at things that stood out. This is what I found.

In a game with two fairly evenly matched teams (they split the regular season, BYU winning by 1 at GU and GU winning by 3 at BYU) the statistics were basically even. BYU made more field goals but took more shots. That resulted in Gonzaga having more defensive rebounds. The offensive rebounds were even (BYU had one more than GU). This resulted in GU having 7 more rebounds, not a big difference when compared with the shots taken) GU made two more three pointers but the % was pretty even (GU took two more 3’s). Then I got to the total foul, individual foul and free throw stats… that is where the game was won/lost. BYU had 22 fouls to GU’s 13. Remember these two teams are about even competitively. That number is a big disparity. More significantly, the two most important players for GU had 1 foul each. GU took 10 more free throws and made 8 more, but the FT % was identical at 80%. If two teams are basically even from a competitive standpoint, why did one team have almost twice as many fouls and half the free throws? Those numbers should have been more balanced and even, but they weren’t. Why? The answer lies in the way the game was officiated and the calls that were made. They favored GU and that was the difference. You can humor yourself reading SG’s comments about missed layups but that is irrelevant because BYU made more baskets than Gonzaga did. The difference was in the number of fouls called on BYU and free throws awarded to Gonzaga. That is reality and truth.

I’m not a basketball guy so your explanation makes sense to me for the game last night. I am wondering about all the tournament games that BYU has lost early, including the NCAA. Is it officiating, the talent or the coaching. To me, when you look at the long history, it is the coaching. I doubt the officiating over such a long haul and I doubt the talent over this long history would be the real problem. To me it is the coaching that is the one trait that sticks out over the long history of “choking.” By choking, I mean not pushing on to victory to the next game.