BYU vs. Houston, observations

Basketball
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1 Demin is not ready for Houston style of play. He is running on potential and that won’t win games vs. rugged veteran guards. Way to careless with the ball. BYU can only go as far as our point guards can take us. here are the stats for Demin and Hall in the Houston game:
Demin 25 min, 5 TOs, 6 points, 1-7 3pt, 4 assists
Hall 23 min, 1 TO, 2 points, 0-2 3pt, 4 assists (his assist-TO ratio is good but 2 total points?)
Baker 23 min, 1 TO, 11 points, 2-3 3pt, 2 assists (not fair lumping him in with the Points guards because he is a shoot first-pass 2nd player but is does play some point)

2 It remains to be seen how Houston games will be refed. If they let grabbing, bumping, all out war type defense play go uncalled, then Houston could win it all. If they call those fouls, Houston is not a elite scoring machine, Houston’s run will end when they hit a final four game and a Duke type team.

3 I have said if for years, BYU has glaring defensive holes. When you have starters like Knell and they can’t hit their shots, they become huge weak spots.
Knell 19 mins, 0-3 3pts, 1TO. 2 points, gees
Boskovic 5 mins 0-2 3pts, 0-3 shots and no defense

4 Cryer, Uzan and Sharp for Houston, all guards- killed BYU, no answer for their 26, 20 and 14 points…meanwhile BYU went Baker 11, Saunders 10 points., Knell 2, Demin 6, Hall 2
You win in tournaments with guard play, Houston has the goods, BYU did not.
Sharp, Cryer pull No. 2 Houston past BYU, snapping 9-game win streak in Big 12 semifinal | KSL.com

5 When Keba leads the team with 14 pts, 12 rebs, BYU is in big trouble.

6 BYU out rebounds Houston 39-37 and 14 O rebounds with only 21% from 3land, 32% shooting, recipe for a blowout. Houston’s elite D and BYU’s poor outside shooting, good thing is there are maybe 2 other teams in D1 that are built like that.

7 BYU 100% from FT, 10-10 only bright spot for the game.

BYU could become a sweet 16 team but no way will we get past a #1 seed in the 3rd round
assuming BYU is a 5-6 seed in the dance.

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Not sure these two coincide for me. If only two teams can beat up on BYU’s offence like Houston then the limit seems more like Final 4…which I agree is a bit too optimistic considering how cowed the players looked in interviews after the game.
Hours to go and ephemeral analysis will be completed and reality can start to kick in…

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Houston wasn’t the only team that kept BYU from scoring early. Think about it. Houston was the team twice that intimidated BYU from the start of the game to halftime. It’s all between the ears. Get that straight and we can do well on Thursday and win.

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It’s unfortunate that there isn’t a set standard nationwide to officiate games. What Houston does, and a few other teams do, is commit fouls with impunity and the fouls aren’t called. Clutching bumping, grabbing, and so forth is fouling by definition, but not in the Big 12 and occasionally in the NCA tournament depending on who officiates the games. If there was a set standard nationwide where when a foul is committed it is called it would make for a much better game. Teams like Houston would have to change their approach or the opposing teams will be at the FT line all game long and they will be seeing players foul out. It would make for some games with a lot of FT shooting for awhile but teams would adapt and we would have a more entertaining wide open style of game.

All that said BYU has to adapt to the officiating and not be intimidated by bullyball. Hopefully they get a good draw in the tourney and some officials that actually call fouls when they are committed. What Houston does is foul the way they play defense. Same with ISU, however, those teams have adapted to the way Big 12 officials call games. Some people like loosely called games and others want to see more skill as opposed to physicality.

Young, based on his NBA background, was surprised at how physical the college game is. It is physical because a lot of clutching, bumping, grabbing are let go that would be called fouls in the NBA.

I heard an ESPN guy, Sean Farnham, on BYU Sports Nation say Demin would thrive in the NBA because the physical stuff is actually called in the NBA.

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It’s one of the main reasons BYU lost to Duquesne last year. They grabbed and held and played overly physical (fouling) and were not called for it. When a player makes a move to drive to the basket and a hand comes out and the players movement is impeded by it that is a foul.

I don’t like the way the game is generally called in today’s college basketball. Too much is allowed around the perimeter and once a player drives and is at the basket that is when they get the call. It makes for way too much grabbing and holding and limits the skill of the players and game. If you can get past the grabbing outside and crash your way to the basket you will probably be shooting free throws regardless of whether or not you were out of control.

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Both teams have to play with it so move on. First it’s the BYU head cases. Then it’s not. It’s the refs again :weary_face:

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It depends, if the officials are fair and consistent (whether they are making bad calls or good calls but being consistent), you are right, both teams have to play through it. But if it is consistent, then the players can adjust to it.

However, John Stockton once told a reporter that the officials can control a game by “when” they make calls. Which is true, I have seen it firsthand. They are called “momentum busting calls”.

I have also seen officials who has a bug in their backside against a team or coach or both, make phantom calls or worse, one-sided calls.

I did not watch the Duquesne game last year, so I cannot comment on it. But I have watched games this year, where an official seems to be inconsistent in calls made. They allow one to team to grab, hold, hand check, etc. while calling ticky tac fouls on the other team.

This what happens when you have a “black, white” type of viewpoint with no shades of gray in your view. You don’t allow the possibility of seeing the “big picture”.

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The challenge with the last statement is those with bias concerning referee bias are unable to see the big picture as well. Whether it’s one sided or not, the teams have to figure out how to combat this. I really didn’t see more grabbing, bumping and so on with Houston than with Kansas, ISU or Arizona. Yet, we won. We played aggressive and focused. The way the shots were so off in the first half was an indication of lack of focus because of intimidation. Houston is just very good about keeping the players and the ball in front of them not allowing them to get to the side. We are really bad at that. We end up chasing the defender into the lane and they have the advantage and almost every time get fouled.

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I have always contended that fouls should be called when committed. I agree that if the officials have the attitude that we’ll let them play then it has to be consistent, but from my point of view call fouls when committed. There should be a consistent standard nationwide and it should be clearly defined what a foul is. Sure judgment will come into play at times, but I see teams like Houston bumping, hacking,
grabbing, excessive hand checking etc. Not much judgment there, call the fouls. Loose officiating favors teams like that. Houston has plenty of skill but the refs need to haul them in a lot. BYU might not beat them even in a tightly called game (meaning fouls are called when committed) but they probably wouldn’t get blown out.

Isn’t there an officiating handbook that clearly defines what constitutes a foul? I agree that sometimes it is hard to discern when a foul has been committed and then an official has to make a judgment but that shouldn’t really happen that often. There shouldn’t be much variation in officiating from one part of the country to another. Just clearly define what a foul is and then call it when it is clearly committed which should be apparent 95% of the time.

I have seen a lot of games where some team appears out of it with only a few minutes left and then they put on a full court press and the refs swallow their whistles and watch while players are hacked and steals ensue because the ref decides to “just let them play” down the stretch. Then the overly aggressive team gets rewarded with a victory for fouling.

Another thing, what is a ticky tack foul? A foul is a foul.

I will admit some things are tricky to judge like when a judgment has to be made between a charge and a blocking foul. A call like that on the spur of the moment can be difficult. When a guy is bumping a dribbler up and down the court that shouldn’t be a hard call to make, or when a guy is grabbing somebody.

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We have witnessed games where most fouls are called. They are almost unable to watch when there are 80 free throws. So, my opinion is that refs make the calls if there is truly impeding going on. See, the defender grabs and the offense player knocks the arm away. Both are fouls. Unless a player loses their balance, then the refs let the game progress. It’s funny how fans want the game to flow but want every contact called.

I’m more inclined to agree with Floyd about the consistency of calls rather than how much contact is allowed. Why doesn’t BYU get as many calls in some games? Because we are a more finesse team as we were against Houston. Refs won’t call fouls unless a team is aggressive. When they are not, they look like they are flopping and faking fouls.

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If the objective of the official is too fair and consistent, then they can do that within the first 10-15 minutes of the game. That is where they set the tone for the game.

Basketball officiating is one of the games where “judgement” is used the most for determining a rule violation. For example, whether to make the call a Blocking foul or charging foul? (Remember you have to make the decision in a split second), was the defensive player set before contact, where was he located in the box, etc.

I do agree with you that a “foul is a foul” and should be called whenever it happens, including a last second foul that caused Arizona fans to go nuts over.

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Nobody has said anything about advantage/disadvantage. That is a HUGE piece to the puzzle of officiating. If a player gains an advantage by fouling it should be called. If another player is at a disadvantage because a foul isn’t called, then it should have been called. It is a judgement thing but not that difficult to judge if you are consistent.

The Hopper always claims that a team has to play through it and deal with whatever the refs are calling. That is true to a point. The thing that the Hopper doesn’t acknowledge is when the advantage/disadvantage aspect comes into question. Houston is a good team but they DEFINITELY gain an advantage over other teams with the tactics that have been mentioned, particularly when the officials fail to make calls. BYU is not a team that does those things but if and when they do, they should not be called for fouls either. I have seen many games when the play of BYU is called differently than the play of their opponent.

Many of the sports people, fans and others were very upset about Saunders getting a call late in the game vs Arizona. When he made the two free throws that put BYU in the lead everyone claimed it wasn’t a foul that should have been called. They completely discounted and forgot about the previous multiple plays on Arizona’s offensive end of the court where several iffy calls were given to an Arizona player who made his free throws as well. Those calls kept Arizona close at the end. Had they not been called, maybe BYU wins by 5 or more points and the call for Saunders at the end is irrelevant… just Arizona trying a desperate comeback.

It’s too easy to see.

BYU lost the game in the first 7 minutes when they couldn’t score. They looked like deer in the headlights and that is on them. Unfortunately, playing Houston even the rest of the way meant nothing, but the defensive play style of Houston kept BYU from making any comebacks and the officials are all too complicit in that regard. It is a bag of tricks involving many things and trying to make it fair isn’t easy. Floyd is right, Aro is right and even the Hopper is right in some ways.

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on selection sunday, they mentioned as much. Houston’s fortunes are tied to how refs call the games…If they let them play, Houston should be on odd’s on favorites. If they call it tight, Houston could be in trouble when they run into a Gonzaga or other blue blood

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Houston is pretty deep too. If they call it tight, I think they will still win if they are making their shots.

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Advantage or disadvantage for calls to be made? I keep trying to give you the answer but it isn’t you coming up with it so you disregard it. It’s simple, if our players do what they usually do and shy away from contact, the refs usually don’t call a foul even with some contact down low. Same with moving around on the floor and getting grabbed. If it’s a weak move the call isn’t made on a regular basis.

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One of your weaker replies.

Not buying it one bit.

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What you have to realize is that you have to be well trained to break the rules and get away with it and it seems like the officials often reward overly physical as opposed to skilled play. Last year against Duquesne bodies were flying around the court, the officials didn’t care, the more skilled team apparently expected fouls would be called when committed, and lost the game because they had an unrealistic expectation that the rules would be enforced at some point. Duquesne played an overly physical game because that was the only way for them to win and BYU didn’t respond.

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Exactly Aro. Jim simply doesn’t understand what the officials are looking for.

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My response was in part meant to be ironic. I Don’t like it when an inferior team wins because the officials won’t call a foul when it is committed and the opposing team is forced to adapt because the rules are only loosely enforced.I don’t buy the philosophy that physical play should necessarily be rewarded. So what is physical play? Is it bumping, hacking, clutching etc. if so that shouldn’t be rewarded.

If physical play is manifested because you are stronger, jump higher, and you are quicker, but can excel with only minimal contact, and within the rules, I can’t argue that. If you are engaging in a lot of contact then the other team should be shooting fouls and your guys should be fouling out. There will occasionally be contact when rebounds are contested and loose balls are contested, screens are set etc, The stronger player will usually win those battles, but teams like Houston that bump, clutch, hack, so forth should be called for those things.

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That’s not what he said but then again you rarely understand what people are saying.

I totally understood his post. Duquesne was hacking, holding and everything else they could get away with because they were the inferior team when it came to actual talent and skill. It was their only hope of winning and the officials let it happen… as a result they won the game.

If VCU is allowed to play the same typd of game we could see the same result… unless BYU decides the fight back and the officials allow the Cougars the same.