Bingo, so Policing people’s lives is practical and moral? I call that forced righteousness. When I attended BYU, the HC people were affectionately called the “Gestapo”. Encouraging their roommates to squeal on them. If you go back even earlier, the Gestapo would even tail wrong doers for months at a time, just to get the goods on them.
Joseph Smith taught principals of righteousness so that members could choose for themselves. There should be no HC at BYU and people should be free to live the commandments or not to. Student Athletes should not have their lives ruined because they get caught. Forced morality begets forced repentance, the devils plan if you believe in that sort of thing.
Needs to update and stop sweating the small stuff like beards etc
Stop the snitch culture
Needs to run through the bishopric, not an ‘honor code office’
There is something of a double standard when it comes to athletes as BYU tries to avoid bad pub.
I’d be open to a different set of rules for Non-members. Don’t break the law, don’t embarrass us. I’m not sure how I feel about that…
That said, I disagree with characterizing the HC as forced morality. If you want to attend BYU you can, but only if you abide by the HC. No one is forced to BYU, therefore, no one is forced to be moral. BYU is seen as a representative of the church and by the way, students are heavily subsidized less we forget. Asking students to represent the church well doesn’t seem too much to ask.
Take a look at the pics of the Fortune 400 CEO’s and CFO’s and by and large BYU wants their students to look the part of professional, kept students. Look at the GA list. I know that having beards isn’t a sign of rebellion or unrighteousness but if you allow BYU to become a normal looking Cal Bear student body then things go down hill quickly in the personal appearance dept. Sure the no jeans and no Capri issue needs to be looked at again and a few other traditions that aren’t useful need to be done away with, but I think the appearance issue is good for recruiting and good for the students!
So a Bishop and Stake President can have a beard, but a BYU student can’t because we want to have an “Appearance” of righteousness… Am I getting your comment right?
You do realize that up until 1960’s that GA’s had facial hair? About the same time the HC came out, the GA’s were told to be clean shaven…which both happened during the time of the hippie movement…
" “trust in that Spirit which leadeth ‘Student’ to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously”
In other words let the students show how they live the gospel of Christ to show the world why BYU is a unique place to come and be apart of, not some outdated Dress code.
I am NOT talking about doing away with any moral or ethical standards, but having a beard should be okay as long as they maintain it. Clothing should be modest and well kept.
You are correct, a bishop and stake president can have neat and trimmed facial hair and for the most part BYU students can’t! Bishops and stake Presidents generally use more common sense than 18 -24 yr olds. It is too subjective! You are missing the point of clean shaven appearance to the business world and it has nothing to do with righteousness. Your whole argument is based on righteousness and that isn’t BYUs stated goal of having their students look nice neat modest and clean shaven. Employers love recruiting at BYU and the look of the campus and the students and faculty are a big reason. If the graduates want to start growing beards upon leaving the school, they can. This is really a goofy thing to get hung up on and they aren’t going to change the policy because things would go out of control quickly. If you want to have a beard and attend college then choose another institution and attend there! Just not any BYU school or LDS business college.
It’s bad for hypocrisy… BYU is full of sharp looking hypocrites. It was when I was there, it has been while my kid was there. What is going to change in that arena? Man looks on the outward appearance while the Lord looks on the heart…
Thawk, I think you over estimate the importance of the HC, look of the campus, the students and faculty with employers… That is not why they like BYU students as employees, they like them because BYU has put a lot of effort into building their academic schools into being one of the best in the country.
Has nothing to do with being clean shaven students and having a clean campus. That has to make me laugh, even at the thought of someone saying that.
My point with changes to the HC is simple… Bring up to date with acceptable CHURCH dress and grooming policy… Administer the HC with equality for both Student and Athlete.
Second your comment about 18-24 is a bit off… The ones I know act and behave better than some of the members my own age.
If the honor code isn’t that important then why are you up in arms about it? Why does the church feel it is important and require mission and temple pres and all the missionaries to dress classy and be clean shaven? It is because the outward appearance is important too! Letting a bunch of late teens and early 20 kids determine what the face of the institution is simply won’t work. That is why there are dress and grooming standards in place that aren’t going to be changed. Sure they might allow jeans at BYU I and other kinds of moronic standards for clothes fade by the way side but the over all appreance requirements won’t be changed!
Jim, you can’t legislate hypocrites and I would rather have sharp looking, well dressed, and personally kept young men and young women if the option is the wildly bearded and unkept looking hypocrites !
But I much prefer what the Prophet Joseph taught “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”
And What the Scriptures teach us:
“It is not meet that I [the Lord]should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.” D&C 58:26
I think the HC has it’s place, it has standards l like (Moral, Honesty, etc.). But I also think that it needs to be reassessed on lesser items found in it.
What a person looks like on the outside means NOTHING to me… because It is what is on the inside that really counts. Does the person have integrity? Are they Honest? How do they treat family members? Those are far more important to me than if they are clean cut and well dressed.
That is true, but you can legislate people into becoming hypocrites… if that makes sense.
I just had way too many interactions with people who pretended to be all that, through the way they dressed and acted in public perception but didn’t in their personal, private lives. It’s the worst in my opinion.
Maybe we could change or lobby for the HC to be changed so that women and men can wear whatever they want and that students are encouraged not to bathe or take care of personal hygiene and not wash their clothes. Guys could shave or not shave and beards down to the belly button are ok. Dirty hair is welcomed. Women can dress seductively if they wish and no means NO. After all appearances on the outside are not indicative of the person’s character. And those who take care of their hygiene and clothing and dress well are really not to be trusted. After all those really old guys who sit on the BOT are really out of it when it comes to today’s fashions, attire and behavior.
You know there was a good clean cut, well dressed member of the bishopric here in Utah that just got arrested for molesting a young teenage member of his ward…He took a really nice mug shot that they showed on TV…
So I guess the outward appearance is not as important as you may think…
Second, Those “Old” guys on the BOT are getting younger or have you not noticed? To add to that President Monson is making our history (including the black marks like Mountain Meadow) more transparent…
So I guess there are some changes that makes good sense.
Well Floyd, it appears that the board of trustees of BYU would rather have both the inside and outside covered for the students who attend there. Maybe you can send your complaint to them? Maybe they aren’t aware of the dress and grooming parts of the honor code and you can educate them? I am sure that the guidelines of the church that do include instructions, like handbook 1 and 2 are in line with the Lords commandments even though you may not agree that they are needed after correct principles are taught. Until the dress and grooming standards are changed at church schools you will just have to live with looking at all the well dressed and neat appearing kids that cross the campus! Of course they could be hiding inside issues that are more important than what they look like on the outside, but the LDS kids with no judgement about grooming standards will be in the same boat! A quick look at the Fortune 400 CEO list and the entire GA list of the LDS Church might give you some reason for pause on this hang up of what is polished and acceptable in today’s world…which may change down the road but for now it is obvious that grooming standards for 20 yr old kids and other leaders is felt to be somewhat important by the GAs.
