One and done again…

Basketball
21

Another astute cougarfan poster that thinks you are incorrect. Imagine that. Interesting arbitrary statement with no basis in reality finished up with “this is a fact”.

It gets crazier all the time… just like me saying that the official who made the call against Samford at the end of the game had no business making that call in that situation and you claiming it was okay. Maybe he makes an error in judgement at an earlier stage of the game but to whistle that call, at that point in the game not only looked bad but certainly appeared biased as well. Why ruin the ending of an incredible comeback? Let the players, especially the one who made ZERO contact with the Kansas player decide the outcome.

Oh yeah, it was over rated Kansas.

22

“One of the issues” in the NCAA officiating is that although all the officials are required to attend the NCAA training conference that usually last about a week. Where in this conference they are taught what the new rules are for the upcoming season, proper mechanics, usually they have an open discussion about issues they have during previous years. Also, during this conference, they are taught “how to call” the rules from a NCAA viewpoint.

The issue comes in when officials go back to the conferences that they work, and the Conference then has another meeting that tell the officials how to call the rules within the conference. Each conference has their standards. In the BIG12 the conference allows physical contact more than say the MWC or SEC conferences.

That is the issue, then when the tournament comes along the “supposed” best officials are selected and they are told how to officiate. The issue is what you might call muscle memory, meaning they call the game the way they did during the season. which creates inconsistencies.

Hope that helps you understand what officials goes through before, during and after the season.

One other point that is constantly missed about “bad officiating” (from the viewpoint of the fans). When you watch the game, you are seeing the game from about a 45-degree angle of the camera. which means that you probably have a better angle than the officials who is on the same level as the players.

Being on field level trying to watch 10 people running around, cutting and creating chaos is difficult at best. People forget that in basketball about 80-90% of the calls are subjective and less objective. as an example, Did the offensive player get to the spot on the floor before the defensive player reached that spot (charge vs blocking) that is purely subjective call. If the player takes 5 steps without dribbling is clearly an objective call.

Another issue is that fans “think” they know the rules and how to call them. My question is simple: When was the last time you read the NCAA rulebook? They have changed the way they make calls from when we played in high school.

Each level High School, College, NBA has different rules and how they call the rules. So just because you think you know the rules, it might not be the case.

In my personal opinion:

  1. Are there biased officials working? YES, just like there are people in this world who is biased against a race or religion. We have officials that are biased against a school. For the most part, these officials are usually “asked” to leave. Not always, but I know that they are not well liked by other officials.
  2. Are there bad officials? Again, yes, sometimes what you call biased officiating is nothing more than an official who is either “green” or basically doesn’t know the rules and how to apply them. Very seldom are their officials that shouldn’t be on the floor. Those usually get rooted out in lower levels.
    Everyone wants experienced officials doing the game, but the way to get those officials is to allow them to grow and learn by making mistakes (yes, sometimes it cost a team games). Think of it this way, were you perfect when you started your chosen profession? of course not, you learned by doing and making mistakes to become the level that you are at now.
  3. Do officials miss calls? Of course, they are human being and frankly can’t see everything. But when people complain about officiating missing calls, I ask them a question "Did the coach make perfect decisions during the game? Did the players play the game perfectly? Are you perfect in your choices and decisions? Of course, all these groups of people were not perfect, then why do you expect officials to be perfect?

I think basketball is the hardest job to try and stay consistent with calls, because most of the calls are subjective. Whereas in like baseball, the strike zone is pretty objective, sternum to the bend in the knees 17" inches wide, where “any part of the white of the ball passes through that zone”. pretty objective rule there.

Sorry for the long post.

23

How do you know it was a foul? can you site the rule that was supposedly broken? are you certain that your player got to the spot on the floor before the other team player reached that spot?

Another abstract observation “A foul is a foul so call it” okay, so what you are saying is that you want a whistle on every foul on every possession to be called? Remember you said “a foul is a foul, call it”:

Are you willing to sit and watch a 2-hour game turn into a 4-hour game because the officials are calling EVERY FOUL? Remember you said “a foul is a foul, call it”:

The net result for “a foul is a foul, call it” is that players will foul out of the game. Which then the game at some point will end in a forfeit because one team cannot put five guys on the floor to finish the game. all because you want “a foul is a foul, call it”:

I know this is abstract observation, but in reality, that is basically what you are asking for.

24

I agree with all of your points. It’s too bad people expect perfection in everything these days. I particularly agree with the idea that officials at the game and on the floor see the exact same thing we see on the TV. The play Samford made against Kansas at the end of the game is a perfect example. Two officials at the same position on the court with one across on the other side. The one that saw what we saw on replay in slow motion didn’t call a foul because he saw the clean block. The other official saw the shooter go up for the dunk and fell saw possible body contact and called a foul. Now, Jim the king of conspiracy and bias calling, said he should not make a call he did not clearly see. My point is he thought he saw body contact. It may have cost Samford the game. Angles make a difference. I liken this to people hitting others in a movie. The angles make it appear contact was made when they could be 6 inches from contact. So, I agree with your analysis on being subjective.

I wish there was a way to have all leagues call the games the same way. But, perhaps because of the big leagues with most of the future NBA players require more contact and realistic NBA like play than other leagues. All I know is the portal changes is spreading the talent around more and leagues should start officiating with the standards of the NCAA.

25

All of the guys (players and coaches) in our baseball program picked BYU over Duquesne because of seeding. They were shocked that I had picked BYU to lose, and I said that I always pick BYU to lose in the NCAA tournament. They always lay an egg, with rare exceptions (Jimmer, Ainge). Even the Mike Smith, Jeff Chatman, Marty Haws teams choked in the NCAA.

You have to separate your head from your heart with bowl picks, NCAA picks, and BYU. The smart money is for BYU to not win.

1 Like
26

So far, all of the 6 seeds have lost to 11 seeds. And Kentucky lost. Parity in college sports is greater now with the NIL and Portal System.

27

What’s painful too is Duquesne is really not that good of a team. We came back 14 points and that’s without getting hot shooting - we still missed a lot, turned it over. The Dukes will get obliterated by the Illini.

28

Because we attempt to play clean basketball (no grabbing and stuff like that) we don’t apparently prepare for it as well (TTU and Duquesne). Going forwards, we need to know exactly what the Big12 officials will call and be prepared. Then, we have to be prepared for the NCAA Tournament and the officials who do our game. We didn’t do that. We got behind in both halves way too soon and too much. I’d like to see next year we start out games going inside and scoring 2 point shots. Of course, we have to make our layups and short floaters too. Except for Robinson, the others were horrible inside. Outside too.

29

I get what you are saying but when a guy takes an elbow to the face and is laying on the floor and bleeding it seems obvious it was a foul and should be called, and maybe even a flagrant foul. I probably got a bit wound up because overly physical play should be curtailed and if that means a parade to the foul lime so be it. Teams will adjust and these slugfests on the court will be a thing of the past and skill will prevail over muscle.

Obviously all minor incidental contact shouldn’t be called especially if it doesn’t affect the play. All of the obvious shoving, hand checking, bumping and so forth needs to be callled when it is seen. When officials let it go it makes for an ugly game.

2 Likes
30

Are you talking about the elbow to Hall? That was a guard getting under the bigs. The play was a basketball rebound move. No foul. Hall got caught where he shouldn’t be at the wrong time.

31

Are you ready for an argument Aro? Because that is ALL you will get from the Hopper. He doesn’t know how to engage in a civil, intelligent discussion. Believe me, I’ve tried many, many times with the same result. He puts words in your mouth, makes unfound claims about what is being said/discussed and misunderstands (on purpose I might add) in order to keep the argument going.

I agree with you Aro.

I have watched several games now and none, I repeat none, of the games has been as physically bruising as the BYU vs. Duquesne game. Bloody noses, guys sprawled on the floor, elbows to the gut and anytime BYU tried to reciprocate those thug tactics they were whistled for it.

It was an ugly game but that is what the NCAA wanted. Not sure what Floyd meant by the NCAA instructing the officials with how to call the games but I saw a lot less of the mugging, holding, elbowing in other games. If all the fouls that are being called in other games were called in BYU’s game, the Cougars would have taken 40 free throw attempts.

I have said before that you are one of the more intelligent, objective posters on this board Aro and I am in agreement with your perspective the vast majority of the time. I’m waiting for a comment from the other intelligent minds and hoping they have something to say too. I know who will post next and I’m not really interested in his opinions and viewpoints anymore.

2 Likes
32

You got your wrist gym
Two. Grasshopper blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah nonsense blah blah, blah blah!!!

33

Yeah, why should BYU try and be physical… don’t get caught where you shouldn’t be Hall. Knell was terrible but I noticed at the start of the game the guy guarding him was holding and grabbing him in an effort to keep him from making cuts and moving. Knell tried to push away from him and keep his hands away from him. When Knell tried the same tactic against the Duquesne player he was immediately whistled for a foul… why should BYU try to play physical or adjust to the officiating…

You asked the question and expected them to adjust. When they did it didn’t change anything. What are they supposed to do?

The play where Hall got his nose bloodied could have been called a foul by an official with a bad angle right? It certainly looked like it could have been called and the blood proved it, but it wasn’t. None of the officials had a good angle to see it. apparently. Having a bad angle and NOT making a call happens all the time unless the game is on the line and then it doesn’t matter what is called, bad angles or not. If it looks like it might have been a foul even though there was no contact and the call might determine the outcome it’s okay to make that call, right?.

1 Like
34

Before the game even started, this is what I wrote down. Unfortunately, it wasn’t in the Basketball thread.

fish

6d

“BYU is a 5 seed according to Lunardi, playing in SL City. If we get all of our wishes come true. The 2nd thing that needs to happen

BYU basketball: Cougars’ starters faltered in loss to Texas Tech. Is it time for a starting lineup change? – Deseret News

Now Hopper will argue this all day long and in the end Pope will probably not change his line ups but here is what needs to happen in our games going forward.

1 Robinson should be starting over Knell.

2 Saunders and Foos have been our best to scorers, defenders and everything in between

3 with this Ramadan fasting. Khalifa should be coming off the bench to rest Foos

4 our 5 should be
Hall Johnson/Stewart
Saunders Waterman
Johnson
Robinson Knell
Foos Khalifa

but Pope won’t change the lineups so I hope he is quick to sub in the above to avoid another TTU meltdown.

Cue the Hopper…”

so there’s been a lot of discussion about how physical this game was, and how poorly it was called. I agree with whatever everyone has posted about how one-sided it seemed calls were to begin the game. As pointed out, it seemed to me that, even though it was inadvertent, I think the call was even reviewed and they decided it was not an intentional foul. To me you had to make that a flagrant just because they came down on hall’s face. But enough of the foul calling Byu did not lose on Officiating

1 Byu lost Because we didn’t rebound. We let a much smaller team out, rebound us.

2 dance games are extremely physical and Pope starts several guys who are not physical, namely Khalifa and Knell. Normally, I like Khalifa, but the fasting and running do not coexist.

3 before the game even started, I said we could not afford to get behind and play catch-up. I thought Khalifa would play better, but it was a big mistake, not having foos in from the get-go and the same could be said for Knell versus Saunders.

Go back and reread everything I wrote before the game. Robinson should start saunders should start Foos should start.

To me all this bickering about fouls Is Foolsgold. Pope should’ve had his best defensive players out there from the get-go

35

I guess it is all a moot point now BYU would have been better off using Atiki than Khalifa the last two games they played. Khalifa contributed nothing. Atiki is physical. He would have fouled out in about 5 minutes but if somebody had elbowed him hard in the nose he would have busted their chops. He could play a role as an enforcer kind of like Larry Kristowiak (the former Ute coach who was a marginal NBA player) played. Not seriously but this overly physical play perturbs me. I watched a little of the Purdue game last night and Grambling was mugging Eddy consistently. Of course they had no answer for him. He scored 30 with 21 rebounds. You just need a guy who is about 7’2 and 300 lbs who is highly skilled then the thug play doesn’t work.

36

curious,
i was not able to watch the game because one of my systems went down.

Jim said the officials were one sided. but if the team was playing physical, why did BYU not respond in the same order?

meaning physical meets physical.

Do we have physical players or do we have daisies on the team?

What we need is a player lije Billie the whopper, who played for the jazz back in the day.

he only played like 15 to 20 minutes, but he annoyed the opposing team star player so much, they would take a punch at him.

loved those jazz days.

37

So, in 1 minute, I can get up to 14 texts during a game from Jim. Here’s what he says, he says that at the start of the games teams are allowed to grab and hold us from cutting to the basket for Khalifa to make his great passes. Brut, he claims that is we do the same we get called and they don’t. Then, after the other team has a double digit lead, they start calling holding on the other team for make up calls. That’s about it in a nutshell. Then, he throws in the conspiracies like the NCAA wants certain teams to progress forward. Or, Duquesne got a donation from LeBron and so the media and NCAA and officials got on board with it.

38

Jerry Sloan had a good quote for lopsided calls
“If you know you are going to called for a foul, you might as well make it a painful foul to the other player”.

Jerry was my type of coach…

39

What I say is the coach has the responsibility to question the officials on the first missed call. Not wait for getting down 12 points. And, make a big deal that if they get to grab and hold we do to. Then, it’s up to us to make layups and 3’s. We don’t, that’s on us. Not some conspiracy that the NCAA hates BYU.

40

You make so many assumptions and mistatements it isn’t even worth responding to what you say. I don’t say even half the things you claim I say, you add stuff in and then interpret whatever it is in a way to fit your narrative. I can’t have a rational discussion with you about anything because you immediately disagree with everything I say. Likewise it’s not just me, you do it with everyone on this board and I have the texts and cougarfan messages to prove it so don’t ask for faxes (like anyone does that anymore) or emails to prove something… they aren’t necessary anyway.

Like I’ve said, I have watched several ncaa games so far and have seen nothing that rises to the level of physicality that I saw in the BYU game. Maybe there are some games that have been close to that but the whistle is blown and fouls are called and the game is clean, in spite of the physical play.

That was NOT the case in BYU’s game. It was physical and dirty/ugly. Not a clean, physical game like many I have seen since.

The notion that Floyd has of officials being instructed how to call games before the tournament started may be true but the refs in the BYU-Duquesne game either weren’t present or they weren’t listening. I don’t mind the physical play if fouls are called appropriately. The fact is they weren’t so it was a different game than those that have followed.

Did BYU lose the game as a result of that officiating style? I won’t say that but it was certainly disruptive to their style of play and affected them adversely. They could have done some things differently to counter it but they weren’t able to and lost the game.