People are now asking if it is more important to beat Utah or is it more important to win over 2-3 other P5 teams

The Biggest question should be:

  1. Is it more important to win vs Arizona, Cal, Wisconsin, Washington,
    Utah, or even Boise State, or——

  2. Is it more important not to lose to:
    FCS Mc Neese State, Utah State, Hawaii, Northern Illinois, U-Mass,
    New Mexico, or even Boise State.

Last season, losing to U-Mass, makes this comparison very important.
Would the thrill of beating a P5 or ranked team, be more positive than the negative humilitation experience of losing to teams ranked 100 or worse?

It seems like the best solution would be not to program teams ranked below
65. This could be balanced by not playing teams consistantly ranked in the top
40. Our goal should be to schedule those P5 teams consistantly ranked between 40 and 65. This is the area where we could agree that it is the most important to win vs the best teams we play.

I use the magical number of 65 because it is half of the 130 Division 1 teams in the Nation. While it is not always the case, P5 teams should be expected to be in the top half of the teams in the nation, while the bottom half should be expected to be the G5 teams. If BYU wants to be considered an Independent P5 team, we should schedule like a successful P5 team. Once we learn how to play a P5 schedule, we could at that time, raise the bar in our programing. Right now, we are only kidding ourselves scheduling vs Wisconsin and Washington and next season vs USC. It is fun scheduling the big names, but not realistic. It is not realistic scheduling the FCS and/or the celler dwellers among the G5 and still have the football world think of us as a P5 Independent

the problem with not playing teams ranked below 65 is “How do you do that?”

Do look at their ranking before playing them each year? or after? Michigan State when we played them was ranked in the top 5, but was so bad that year, they ended up down around 65. Ten years ago, CAL and Arizona were the doormats of the PAC12. Today, Cal is a highly regarded school. Washington was a joke not 3-4 years ago before Coach Petersen came to town, now they are a powerhouse in the PAC-12.

IF we bail on these games, it will cost BYU money to cancel the game (Ask Utah about that) and it will give BYU the image that they are not reliable, and may hamper future contests with big schools. Add to that, most of the games are scheduled anywhere between 2-10 years out.

For the most part, you can not simply schedule a game with a top tier team a year before you want to play them. it is done for years down the road. Some of the lesser teams like McNeese State (Which is in a lower division than BYU) were done to cover a hole in the schedule because a “Big Named” school bailed on BYU. So Tom Holmoe had to scramble to find a team to come in at the last minute, now we are repaying them for helping us out by playing them at their home.

I know Alabama dropped their game at Provo with us, and there are rumors ND will do the same.

So it is not as easy as saying " not to program teams ranked below 65"… Scheduling games is very complicated.

Great response. Scheduling games 2-10 years in advance as an independent, not affiliated with any conference, is a major challenge we will have to deal with every year and we will have to do it from a position where we need them to make room for us in their schedule to fill ours much more than they need us to fill their schedule. Being part of a conference makes scheduling opponents so much easier. Let’s face the fact that no one has to schedule a single game with us. No one ever needs to come play in Provo if they don’t want to. Coaches want to play against winning teams with a large fan base and wide media coverage. We have a lot of what other teams are looking for. Let’s work hard to win what we have scheduled.


I totally agree with all that you said regarding, "“How do you do that?”

Nobody knows for sure what the ranking will be until the games are actually played. That is why, I said,
(in the broad sense), choose teams that are CONSISTENTLY between 40 - 65. Consistently leaves open the strong possibility that there will be some changes.

We know that Mc Neese State and Mass,and 4 of the other teams we play are not consistently above 65.
We know that they are consistently below 65.

We know that Washington and Wisconsin are not consistently below 65. We know that they are consistently above #40.

We know that Boise State is a G5 team that consistently does better than a lot of the P5 teams. They are consistently way above the 65, but they are not consistently below the 40 mark. While there may be years, (maybe), that there will be an exception for Boise State, at least they are consistently that which I described.

We know than once, a long time ago, both Hawaii and BYU were not consistently below 65. We were above 65 and some of those times, we were even ranked. That was than. This is now. I realize that which was consistent back than may show a different consistency now. I think you understand what I mean about our most consistent approximations. At best, we will miss on a few.


BYU Compass

“Scheduling games 2-10 years in advance as an independent, not affiliated with any conference,”

We will not hit 100% at any time on any team, however, we do know that consistently, even 2-10 years in advance, that McNeese State, Utah State, Hawaii, Northern Illinois, UMass, and New Mexico State will not be ranked above 65 consistently. Instead, they will each consistently be ranked below 65. If we miss on one team or even two teams in any given season, so be it.
The point is, we are trying.

We know that consistently, Wisconsin and Washington will be ranked above 40. It will be rare that they are not above 40, and if we miss on one different year, so be it. We are trying. No one is asking that we be perfect. We are asking that we try to stay within guidelines.

Again McNeese State was a fill in for a game that I believe Mississippi State bailed on…

Here is the problem with your theory, it is not practical. BYU needs to have a balanced schedule. With a few cupcakes in there to evaluate underclassman in a game situation.

Last year was brutal schedule and look what happened-- Lost two QB’s, multiple RB’s injured, Lineman injured all on the offensive side, the defensive side did not fair better either.

If we play top tier competition (top 65) every week, I will guarantee that BYU will never get into the NCAA Football playoffs, WHY? because our players will be so beat up, that they will lose many games simply due to injuries.


I always respect your opinions. You seem to be a pretty much open minded person. We do not always have to agree.

One of my many problems, when it comes to our BYU Football program, is that we were once, a long time ago, in 1984, National Champions. We got much criticism at that time because of SOS was said to be not strong enough to make us true Champions. The biggest voice at that time against us, was Washington University. We play them this season in Washington.

We, under the Bronco Era, cried out that we belonged more than anyone else, to be accepted into a P5 program i.e The Pac 12, (where Washington is), or the Big 12, (Where TCU is).

Too often we blame our No Sunday Play or our Honor Code, or the Prejudice of others for our own lack of success.

I believe that we need to stop blaming others or making excuses for our lack of success as a P5 team, be it independent or conference inclusion.

We blame the LGBT community for keeping us politically from reaching our goal. It is my opinion, that we bring much of our failures upon ourself because of our actions or lack of actions. Do onto others as we would have them do onto us. Love thy neighbor. Judge not lest we be judged and leave all judging to God. etc. etc.

Sometimes, I think that Trump has taken lessons from us as he likes to blame Mexico, Canada, all of our allies, and Obama for all that happens that may not be his way. We often do the same type of thing and wonder why everyone is so prejudice against us.

I want to play by the rules. We are either a G5 team and play as many patsies as we want in order to win conferences, get bowl games every year and be king of the Ant Hill, or we play like, look like, and be like a P5 team, conference or Independent, and schedule as though we are a P5 team.

Go either way, but don’t expect to get the respect of being a P5 team, as we insist on or rationalize our actions for scheduling like a G5 team.

Trying for BYU to be in a conference would be good. But we all know that BYU wants to be in a P-5 league, which to me is a slim to none chance in the next five to 7 years.The liberal schools in the PAC like Cal, Stanford, USC, Colorado and UCLA do not want BYU in the PAC. The Big 12 (little ten) does not want BYU in their cartel either.
Being independent in football and basketball is a mistake for BYU. It’s also a lot about the money. But BYU is a slave to ESPN and their control of our football and basketball schedules and starting times of games. BYU needs to get into a G-5 league in basketball and football with a chance to play on an equal basis. But BYU football in independence is a mistake. BYU should apply to play football and basketball in the American Athletic conference.

BYU does not play or act like a P-5 cartel team forsaking our LDS standards for inclusion with liberal schools like Cal, Stanford, USC, Colorado and Washington and Oregon. BYU should not play games on Sundays. I believe that BYU should be realistic and apply for football and basketball membership in the American Athletic Conference. We will never be a champion in men’s basketball in the WCC. The PAC will not accept BYU on our terms, nor will the Big 12 (little ten).

Tex, I think you have summed up what I believe quite well. No matter how well we play, the PAC 12 nor the Big 12 will be offering us a place in their conferences. They have made it clear. We can speculate all day why, but it doesn’t change the fact that there will be no invite coming our way. Being independent has some advantages, but I believe there are more down sides and scheduling is one of the biggest. It is time for us to explore our G-5 options. Maybe the AAC, maybe Mountain West, or ?, but getting off the independent merry-go-round operated by ESPN could be very positive.


I find it disappointing to see that as recent as 6/22/18, we still try to blame the No Sunday Play Rule, or the Honor Code for our reasons for not being accepted as a P5 team, (conference member or independent). Neither had anything to do with our performance in 2017 except for a very, very, stretch of
possibility that it may or may not have contributed to a lack of recruiting success.

The truth is that we are going through a tuff period of learning how to play something much closer to a P5 schedule than we are use to playing. We are going through tuff growing pains now that requires that we be patient.

Another truth is that we still expect top notch coaches to coach for us at a much lower pay than they can get from other quality Universities. We miss out on attracting many of the best available coaches for this reason.

Another truth is that we still insist that our HC be a member of the Church in good standing instead of placing the requirement on the AD that would be required to make sure that he hires the very best that would agree not to do anything in public that would embarrass the Church or the University that it owns.

And another truth, most troubling to me is that we still display an arrogance that we expect the big powerful Power 5 conferences to give into our demands without being willing to make any compromises in order to abide by some of their rules. Why would any Power 5 conference want to have us, with all of our uncompromising demands to bend over to satisfy us, the team not willing to accept any of their simple routine procedures, when they have 15 other teams that would be more than willing to accept the simple guidelines of the conference without claiming that the conference is evil or misinformed or un caring or ungodly. It just doesn’t make since for us to brag about being too difficult to get along with.


I hate the thoughts that BYU fans may be considering the easy way out without being willing to continue the fight to be as good as it really is, or was, or could be.

I hate the idea that we would rather lower our standards from striving as an Independent to be competitive vs the best teams in the nation, P5 teams, and by doing so, join an easy G5 conference or perhaps an FCS conference so that we can beat up on everyone, win almost all games, get bowl games each year, and be a regular at winning all the conference championships, and perhaps, through process of elimination, someday, maybe, if lucky, get a shot at a New Years Day Bowl. Big ugly worthless and disgusting deal. I would be very much ashamed if we are that anxious to win a game vs any team that doesn’t really matter on the National Level. BYU is too good to stoop so low.

Last season, for me, was not shameful, while learning, to lose against the P5 teams we played. It was shameful losing against all the teams we lost to ranked 100 or worse. It was shameful losing to UMASS in Provo. Once we lower our standards, it will be shameful to lose to each and every team that we lose to.
I don’t want that for BYU.


I hate labels, i.e. liberal schools like Cal, Stanford, USC, Colorado and Washington and Oregon.
By what you describe as Liberal, there was a Man Called Jesus that walked among the Lepers,
turned over tables and chairs in a Synagog, calling it a den of inequity with all of it’s money changes,he chose his apostles not from the Churches and/or synagogs, but from rough fishermen that spend many days and nights on their job out to sea, and according to the Bible, his life companion was a prostitute at one time. That sounds pretty liberal to me. Why must people make the word “Liberal” a bad word?

Cal, Stanford, USC, Colorado, Washington and Oregon are fine Universities, as it Utah, Arizona, Arizona State, Washington State and Oregon State. Why must we put them down in order to put ourselves up.
We are too good for that. We don’t need to put others down in order to make us feel good about whom we are. We are good without doing that.

I agree that untill we change our behavior, no conference, P5, G5, of FCS, will want us. We have to stop finding fault with others and instead, find the good in others, because if we don’t change this part of what we have become, we won’t be as good as we once were, or am now, or should and could be in the future.


“Cartel” More labels!!!

Regarding your comment, "The Big 12 (little ten) does not want BYU in their cartel either. "The President of Oklahoma was pushing for us to enter the Big 12 until the LGBT community threatened demonstrations and political actions vs the Big 12 if they did accept us into the Big 12.

The Big 12 did not want to chose lesser qualified institutions over us so they decided for the time being to not expand. That was being kind to us while protecting themselves. Why should the Big 12 go through all the political unrest for something we did, not being what they did?

So why would the LGBT community be so prejudice agains us? Really does anyone need to ask that question, after we desperately tried to stop them from what they, the LGBT community, so much wanted to accomplish with Pro 8 in California where we crossed state boundaries to defeat them and what they wanted to achieve for themselves. Is anyone really wondering why the LGBT community would not try to stop us from doing that which they know we really want?

Wouldn’t it really be a whole lot better if we just followed the simple commandment, “Do onto others as ye would have them do onto you” “Judge not, lest ye be judged, and leave all judging to God”

Yes, I have heard many of the explanations where the Lord really did 't mean what he said and all the contradictions in other scriptures, but I believe in the premise that the better we treat others the better we will be treated in return, and this has nothing to do with No Sunday Play or our Honor Code. Instead, it has everything to do with common decency to others.

BYU Canpass and texcoug—

Notre Dame is not in a P5 conference. Notre Dame is an Independent. Does anyone really believe that they are thought of as a G5 team? Absolutely not !!!

Like Notre Dame, BYU is also an Independent. Unlike Notre Dame, it is true that we would like to be in a P5 conference, but until that time comes, if indeed it ever does come, we, like Notre Dame, need very much to be considered in the football world as a P5 Independent.

P5 is where the money is. You can’t find that money as a G5.

The money is what pays for the best coaches in the Nation, while the lack of money gets the left overs.

The best coaches in the Nation gets the 4-5 star players. The left over coaches get the 0-1-2-3 star players.

The 4-5 star players wins the game that keeps the rich getting richer. The 0-1-2-3 star players keep the poor getting more more.

College football is a $ multimillion dollar business. Those that take their investments seriously and make sure their businesses prosper, are the businesses that win. Those that do not take care of business, lose, as indicated in our 2017 season.

It takes money to make money. This is not just a saying. It is a fact, except for very rare cases.

Ron, The reason we are not in the Big 12 was because of personal bias against the church, as stated by the group that rallied against BYU being invited, calling for boycotts and such if the conference allowed BYU. The political pressure got to the school presidents.

Second, if you listened to Coach Kalani this past week, the reason we failed so badly last year was because Ty and company did not make the starters to compete for their positions. I will also add that in my opinion Ty and company inexperience as a coaching staff cost BYU games. Now with the new offensive staff, there is close to 100 years of D1 Experience being used to right the ship.

I could be wrong, but I think we will do well this year, we may not win all of the games, but I believe we will make the other team know they are in a dog fight to win that game.

Actually it was the OU Athletic Director pushing for us to get in, it was the School Presidents that backed down to the pressure of the LBGT communities.

Just for clarification: Cartel is not necessarily a bad term. Cartel could mean “a combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises designed to limit competition”… which is what the PAC-12 does.


We are saying the same thing with different words, It boils down to Utah going into California elections with big money to defeat that which the LGBT community desperately wanted

What they wanted, was to be treated equally for who they are and what they believe, as we are treated for whom we are and what we believe. We said no. If you are not like us, you may not enjoy the benefits that we enjoy. We took away their rights for equality. Later the Supreme Court over ruled saying that the situation was unconstitutional. (We believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law of the land).

In retribution, the LGBT community is trying to keep us what we want most in football. (Inclusion into a P5 conference, or at least be recognized as an Independent P5 team. (Do onto others as ye would have them do onto you) (Judge not, lest ye be judged, and leave all judging to God)

Regarding “Cartel” Thank you for the information. I didn’t know that. Or perhaps, I never thought about it like that. The drug Cartel in Mexico, in the past several decades has given the name, “Cartel” a bad name. I have one problem with your definition. Is the Mexican Drug Cartel a "Combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises’ or is it something else?

Do you realize that while the church did that, they were not the biggest financial donors to that effort, it was the Baptist and Catholic churches.

I also know that they stopped doing that type of things based on what happened in California.

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