This can't be still happening, can it?

Don’t tell me we don’t have a race issue still among many members of the church, this makes me sick. Follow the Lord is what I thought we believed, no?

Always quick to judge and not know the entire story… Maybe that is why you read the SL Trib… because they do the same thing…

Floyd, is it wrong or is what they reported accurate? You seem very quick to disregard the trib as a whole, does that apply to everything they write, or just what you don’t like?

It’s not the first I have heard of issues, but the first I have heard of people being released for talking about the essays on in church. Why don’t more members and leaders know about these? Why the fear of the truth when discussing our past and past mistakes? Integrity and honesty is always the best way to handle things like this, the coverup is often worse than the crime.

why did my post get deleted?

I know the incident took place in Hawaii, but I was going after Utah again for Floyd’s benefit. :smile:

The first time the woman experienced racism in the church was in her dorm at BYU, by a member from pleasant grove (fits within the bubble footprint) and that is sad.

Oh well, the church membership is making progress in a lot of areas but still the members have personal issues they have to deal with, just like in the early days of the church.

I agree that the coverup is often worse than the original issue.

Members continue to believe that every word spoken by the prophet or important leaders of the church is worthy of gospel doctrine inclusion and that just isn’t the case.

The US in 1850 was a very racist place, those are just facts. I find it enlightening and inspiring that the prophet Joseph Smith saw fit to giving the priesthood to blacks. Brigham Young was a great “man” but he was still just a man and fallible occasionally. The early church heirarchy messed this one up but I think that Heavenly Father knew this all along and his ways are not ours so it came to light at the appropriate time with President Kimball.

It is okay to talk about this, none of us is going to hell because we recognize that prophets and church leaders aren’t perfect. They are people like you and me and they make mistakes. But they are also called of God to be the mouthpiece of the Lord and when they speak in conference and other various situations, we should listen and heed their counsel.

I agree with you on this KC… a rare occurence indeed. :sweat_smile:

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What I have found with SL Trib is they generally do not print “the whole story” when it comes to the church. I have had personal friends get misquoted or out right lied about from Reporters for the Trib. That is my personal take on the SL Trib… I have found too many one sided stories for my liking…

I have also found from people in general that when something happens (i.e. the two people recently X’d) like this, they tend to leave “some” details out in order to make themselves look better. This happens with people in Utah, Texas, Arizona and California (so it not unique to Utah only).

Did it happen the way the guy said it did? I don’t know, I would think that a bishop would not do that, but then again, I know some Bishops who have been real jerks. I worked for one for almost 7 years while I worked my wife and I through college.

I use to jump to conclusion about things, until I got tired of looking like a fool, because what I thought was happening turned out to be something completely different than what I thought it was…

If you choose to criticize, be my guess, because only YOU will be held accountable for it… Me, I choose to wait until I have more information.

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What Jim? BYU has racist there? No Never, at least that is what several posters have told me over the years…

Second, The Bubble which causes the most problems is NOT the Utah Bubble… It is the “Mission Field Bubble”… somehow members who live outside of Utah think they are so much more righteous than us who live in Utah.

Get over it…

I have lived in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and California. With short stints in Georgia and Minnesota… I grew up in Utah as a NON LDS person… So yea, I know both sides of the track.

Guess what Jim… I found the mentality of the members in all those states basically the same… ARROGANT! Especially when they found out I am the son of a Bar Tender. Even now, I go to church in Arizona and California and I get the Mission field attitude about Utah members… instead of doing what they should and be welcoming, they treat my family like crap because we live in Utah. So yea… Jim, ■■■■■ and moan about the Utah Bubble… I have seen and felt the Mission bubble and guess what? I don’t like it any better than your rant about Utah Mormons…

Does Utah Mormons have problems? Yes they do…
So do the Mission Field Mormons… Except they are too self righteous to know it…

Of course there are racist people in the church. There are also people who lie, cheat, steal, sleep around, drink, etc. Members of the church are not perfect. Even the leaders are flawed. I could personally recount several issues with various individuals including some in leadership positions.
However, I feel that the vast majority of active members (even in Utah County) are honest, accepting, loving and are working towards becoming the type of people that they should be. Pointing out the flaws in individuals without acknowledging that we are working towards becoming the people that the Lord wants us to be is only telling half the story.
Additionally, there are several ways that someone can “teach” the information in the church’s position on race and priesthood. If the teacher were to teach that the ban resulted out of the fact that Brigham Young was a racist, I would understand his being released from teaching 12-14 year-olds. In other words, it is possible that, while the story is true, the details as they are presented are different than what is being represented.
With that said, I am constantly amazed that people can attend church, with all of their faults, and then complain that the church members are not as perfect as we should be. Of course we are imperfect. We are imperfect today, we will be imperfect tomorrow, next week isn’t looking too good either. Hopefully, we are working on it. If not, chalk it up to another imperfection.

This is a topic and area I had always struggled with. I asked many teachers as a youth why the priesthood was not extended to Blacks and was taught the old doctrine. The most honest answer I ever heard was a leader who said he simply didn’t know but knew in his heart it was always wrong. I always had a hard time with how this subject area was never discussed by the Church and it did at times hurt my testimony.

I will never forget my Grandma telling me how wonderful it would be when people of all colors got to heaven the curse of Cain would be washed off and everyone would be white. Many members have no clue that there was even an essay published on the topic because it never made it to those who don’t follow church news or discussion sites.

The church has always taught the white skin is pure, yet we know now that is false. We were all brought up on false misunderstanding of this and were under the impression it was doctrinal. I still say it’s better late than never, but remind those who are so hard fast to other traditions that just don’t seem right, that’s it’s ok to question or even reject teachings that don’t line up with the Lord.

This much we know, men, even those who mean well and are called to serve the Lord, can and will make mistakes. 99% of the time those mistakes are harmless, but unfortunatly there are some that sneak through the checks and balances due to popularity or status of the man who holds the belief. And as members of faith, we can be guilty of leadership worship and follow blindly or let these errors go unchecked because we believe it’s all or nothing with the brethren.

The reality is that they try their best, but sometimes are not in line with what the Lord would want, and thankfully we believe that current leaders can override former ones, or even correct another current leader should they say something wrong in a conference talk as Boyd Packer did a few years ago. I appreciate that aspect of the church governing body, their willingness to correct mistakes, even on the spot.

" In a private Church council three years after Joseph Smith’s death, Brigham Young praised Q. Walker Lewis, a black man who had been ordained to the priesthood, saying, “We have one of the best Elders, an African.”

Doesn’t sound like BY was a bigot. Instead, he was simply told not to continue ordaining African blacks by The Lord. The imperfect part is by those offering reasons. Not the instruction. Is there any reason given by God why 11 tribes of Israel were not allowed to be ordained? No. Moses was simply instructed to do so. I’m sure there was those who called Moses and all prophets afterwards bigots too.

I’m not sure why the teacher was released. Neither are you. Before pre-judging the bishop, you might find out more information and take your own medicine of not hating and being prejudiced. We don’t know everything. But I’m sure there is more in this.

"In a private Church council three years after Joseph Smith’s death, Brigham Young praised Q. Walker Lewis, a black man who had been ordained to the priesthood, saying, “We have one of the best Elders, an African.”

Doesn’t sound like BY was a bigot. Perhaps the Lord actually told him to restrict the priesthood. Why can’t we accept this without all the attacks on BY and other Prophets? President Kimball wasn’t the first Prophet to ask the Lord to lift the ban and was told not now.

The ban lasted for 126 years. I doubt it was a mistake by BY. Especially since he praised Quincy Lewis. Why can’t people accept that there was a reason the Lord wanted? Why does it have to be a 2015 political correctness issue with you?

So when are the words from the Prophet right and when are they wrong? Was Moses evil when he denied the Priesthood to all but a few Levites?
Israelites would bring their sacrifice to the priests to perform the ordinance. Was it possible during those times to perform temple ordinances for the dead who were black by those who were given the rights to do the work? I’m just asking. If so, the work continued for blacks, right?
Anytime something happens, theories arise in abundance. BY felt Lewis was great for the Church as a Priesthood holder. Doesn’t sound like he was a bigot over this. 126 years, I doubt the Lord made a mistake for that long.

Part of what you should recognize and acknowledge is that all of these things happen as part of the Lord’s plan and the bigger picture. These changes aren’t just a result of political correctness or pressure from society or something else. Yes, people make mistakes and we are all fallible, but the Lord is not.

He allows us to make mistakes so that we are able to learn and grow. I’ve never thought that “The church has always taught the white skin is pure” and think this is your own vain interpretation of some historical comments, put forth to instill doubt or insecurity in others. Be careful of the line you walk is all I can say… and I say that because you are as important as the next person.

Don’t you think if Heavenly Father would have thought it important at the time that the issue would have been resolved then and not 100 years later? What about polygamy? Is it possible that it will come back again after being restored 175 years ago? Perhaps the issue with gay marriage (which the Lord does not condone because it doesn’t fulfill his eternal destiny and plan for his children) is the pathway that will allow it to happen again?

Obedience and faith are two very important principles of the gospel and require our constant attention and use.

You cherry picked one statement from him, do you really want the pages of references that show the other statements he made? You can’t use the argument “well some of my friends are …” To excuse racism or bigotry of any kind.

But what is nice, is that the church has finally started distancing themselves from former leaders racist opinions that leaked their way into theology. It will continue with other areas as well. It’s the evolution of the church, and hopefully some day it catches up with the gospel of Christ.

Jim, my opinion is simply this, when the brethren or church has errors over the years, it’s because they didn’t understand the will of the Lord or simply didn’t recognize the promptings of the spirit and allowed traditions and opinions of the day influence church decisions. Men will always fall short, even men who happen to be in leadership positions. They are no different than the rest of us, and can be influenced by their own opinions and traditions.

Follow the Lord as outlined in the scriptures, love God, love your fellow man, and you will avoid following false traditions.

When they don’t follow the words of the Savior to love God and love your fellow man.

I can’t disagree with you on this. Having said that I hope you recognize that a lot of what happened in the past is rooted in what was part of the social norm as well, so while it was wrong it was certainly more acceptable then.

Unfortunately the detractors and opponents to truth will use whatever tools (mostly lies) they can to discredit and mislead those who seek after truth and follow it. That fact is as true as anything else out there.

I do understand what you are saying here and acknowledge it as legitimate. I can’t say the same with everything you post. :unamused:

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As an outsider, I think I see the situation pretty clearly. The church is still doing what they’ve always done: not being fully honest with their history and doctrines. Of course this isn’t unusual, all organizations do it to some degree. But they ignored so much evidence about various issues (Smith’s conviction for money digging, Book of Abraham, the first vision, the Kinderhook Plates, Book of Mormon historicity, etc. etc. ) that the facts became too difficult to ignore without looking foolish in the eyes of the few LDS people that bother to research these things. They were hemorrhaging members and they finally had to do something. But instead of finally opening up and being honest about their past, they now choose to have two different sets of stories; one for the few members that care enough to do the research, and one for the mainstream who they want to keep unaware of these myriad issues. No wonder some people freak out when the church’s own essays are taught! They simply don’t know, and frankly don’t seem to care. I mean listen to grasshopper drone on and on about how Brigham Young wasn’t racist but was only following the voice of God. The problem is, the church now admits that this isn’t the case at all! He just doesn’t know it. They just aren’t telling the mainstream membership until they have too.