This can't be still happening, can it?

Off-Topic
42

So why would you use ad hominem attacks on someone not of yor faith, instead of trying to find common ground and SHOW him that you are not just an ignorant BOM thumper who will defend and attack at all costs?

What do you think is more effective at spreading faith in Christ???

Problem is, far too many members of our church put spreading the “gospel of Mormonism” over spreading faith in Christ. The history can’t be defended and doesn’t need to be defended, what needs to happen is a change in how we respond and react TODAY!!! And the best way to do that is to apologize for past sins, and live better today, not defend, degrade, and tear someone down, especially a fellow BYU fan who happens to not believe in Mormonism.

I can honestly say, some of you guys don’t get how much more damage you do than good for the name of Christianity as a whole when you do these things.

43

“Craig, I think if you follow his posts he didn’t jump to this, but was bated even begged by some to go this far.”

JH - Please tell me you are smarter than this. You really don’t think he was headed down this path from the beginning? Just looking for some convenient way to get there? Of course he was.

“I hope for a day when the church makes room for people with beliefs and opinions different than the norm.”

JH - Really? You need to get out more. There is all kinds of room for different opinions, beliefs are another question. I mean isn’t that the whole point of the true gospel of Jesus Christ? That the beliefs are agreed upon? I’m talking about basic doctrinal stuff, principles and ordinances. I’m not talking about human shortcomings and imperfections. And what do you consider the norm? Personally I never believed that Africans or any blacks were inferior. In fact I often considered dating and marrying interacially just to spite some and prove it. My wife is part mexican, italian, irish, etc. and looks polynesian. My grandmother had a hard time accepting that I was marrying a “mexican”, so I recognize the issue of racism.

“None of his references were untrue, it’s just how different people chose to equate the information in their life and or faith.”

JH - You might as well be claiming that there is NO truth or untruth, only opinion and “information equating”. That is nonsense used to justify actions and opinions. Come on KC…

“And thankfully we have fans of BYU that are not just cookie cutter Mormons, after all the school and program are not just for Mormons, supposedly its mission is to reach the world and fans like Mike are appreciated.”

JH - You take a truth based opinion and then mix in a personal opinion. Please tell me how you draw the conclusion that a fan like MikeH is appreciated? If he was simply a BYU fan, sure no problem, but he has demonstrated that his motives are ulterior with no basis as a BYU football fan.

“No need to go this route with him, a more Christ like response may be more appropriate next time bro.”

JH - So then KC… how do you think the Savior would respond in this situation? How did he respond in any situation? He points out the error of their ways, tells them he loves them and implores them to move forward. I think Craig is a pretty good person. How do you think he could have done better? I’m serious about this, how could I have done better?

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What is your belief regarding doctrine and principles of the church?
i personally believe that the church is too cluttered today and anticipate them trimming down to model more of what Christ organized when he was on the earth. Good men with good intentions, have let the train leave the tracks on occasion over the years and we seem today to be govern at times more by tradition or policy than by doctrine.

Is it too personal to share whether you believe in baptism by immersion, gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. all done by the proper authority? ie. the priesthood authority?
I believe the Lord wants all to accept Him and show their devotion to Him by being baptized in His name. The authority is His, and only those who are sincere can act in His name. I understand the order of the priesthood that I hold, I don’t care to share any further on what I believe about it on a message board.

Do you believe the prophet is the mouthpiece of the Lord? That he can receive revelation for the entire church, and the world for that matter, etc.?

I believe the prophet and apostles are capable of speaking for the Lord, just as I believe you, myself, or even Mike is capable of speaking for the Lord. I believe the president of countries are capable of speaking for the Lord for the nations they lead. Do I believe in a literal sit down face to face meeting, no. It doesn’t work that way.

But more importantly than any of these questions to me is this, do I accept Christ as my savior and redeemer and do I comvenent with Him that I will care for my fellow man. My belief is this is what is going to matter when it’s all said and done, did we love God, and did we love our fellow man. And our actions will speak louder than our words with both.

45

KC,

First I had to look up the word " hominem" to understand what you meant… Sorry this boy is from the West side of the Valley…
Second, I said as clear as I could write that it was my perception of what he was based on HIS OWN POSTS… In my reply, I tried to explain that in my inept way of writing.
Third - I don’t spread the Gospel of Mormonism… I try to spread the gospel of Christ… But even the Savior had his ways of disrespecting those questioning him and his gospel… If you don’t believe me KC, go research in Jewish customs the meaning of the Savior “drawing in the dirt” before saying “he who has no sin, cast the first stone”. him drawing in the dirt is a sign of disrespect… I think SG might know more about it.
Fourth - I like how you classify things in the past as “sins” are you know judge and jury? But I find it interesting that you “protect” mike by chiding me for “tearing him down”, but yet you tear down Scott and others who do not believe as you do… I hear the pot calling KC…

Lastly, I grew up non LDS and know first hand how some members of the church acts… What I posted in my own clumsy way was not tearing down Mike, I was simply stating that HISTORIANS have a history of slanting history to their viewpoints… that is why you need to look at ALL sources, not just the ones you believe.

46

What is missing from nearly all responses to Mike can be summed up in one word, empathy. It’s a Christ like attribute that falls short on here with how people have responded to most of Mikes posts. I believe the Savior showed you how He would handle this, perhaps a cast the first stone response, or a who touched me response, or a living waters response. Not a defensive response, but just as He healed those in His days, he asks each of us to “heal” those in need today. Empathy is what is required, not defense or aggression.

I don’t know Mike, and I don’t obviously see eye to eye on everything with him, but I understand where he is coming from and I have empathy for his situation and am comfortable enough in my faith to say, yeah, there is some messed up things in our history and still today, I recognize that and am doing my part to help change that for the future. I don’t have an issue saying yes, the leaders today should apologize for the leaders of the past when why have errored, I don’t find apologizing as a sign of weakness, I actually consider it an admirable attribute and sign of integrity.

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47

Floyd, first let me say again, I like you, even love you and I hope you know that.

You are right, I have been guilty of exactly what I accuse you doing to him as I have done wth SG. Scott can be a moron on here and has at times got me to fall for his shtick. I have responded back to him when I have crossed the line and apologized, as I have with you and others in the past. So the same expectations I ask of others, I place on myself. And recognize we are all a work in progress so hopefully fans like Mike can forgive some of us on here as the offseason brings out some crazy off topic posts, and we can all be united in bashing Bronco when the season gets here👍

48

Why would empathy be the word KC… Empathy means to understand ones feelings based on the same experiences…

Some one who has always been LDS can never truly understand one who was not LDS then joined the Faith… That is called Sympathy.

Mike’s Post was not someone looking for truth… it was based on an anti Religion beliefs (Can not believe in a God who hides in the sky comment). I have dealt with people who “Act” like they are searching, but instead … They try to bait others… I can recognize it, because of my family… Sorry but I am not one to sit back and let someone bash what I believe… Not in my DNA.

49

Right on Floyd and I mean what I said earlier. You know that.

I remember meeting you for the first time and, not sure what I was thinking, felt inclined to hug you. Believe me when I say that this was something completely out of character for me. I might be able to count the number of people I had done that with on two hands up to that point.

Now then, the more I have gotten to know you, the more I understand why I did that. I feel a comradery and kinship that I don’t often have with many people… and feel like I have with you. I appreciate and respect your opinions and perspectives. I feel the strength of your testimony and know it is real. I have often wondered about my own conversion and whether it would have been different had I not been born into church membership. My conversion is ongoing but like you, I have had experiences that compel me to state that I know it is true and I cannot deny it. I do have sympathy for MikeH because he has stated several times that he has not, nor does he believe that he ever will, have a spiritual experience that convinces him of any gospel truth, let alone the existence of God. That is too bad.

Anyhow, I apologize that I cannot respond directly to him but I just can’t. If he wants to talk about football I will respond but I don’t think that was ever his intent.

I need to stop now, but before I do I need to apologize to you for some of my “utah mormon” rants and my public employee rants as well. These don’t speak well to my character or who I really am. I’m sorry about that.

50

If you feel like you can’t have empathy for another unless you have been through the same issue or agree with them on an issue, I’m sorry for you. But as I said, we are all still a work in progress so hopefully you get there someday, I still work on it every day, so I know it’s possible if people don’t give up on the desire. God bless.

51

KC,
This is your trick you like to do… State something that the poster did not say…

I never said I can not have empathy for someone (PLEASE SHOW WHERE I DID)… What I asked was Why use the Word “Empathy” instead of Sympathy? It is funny KC, I was talking to my Bishop the other day… He told me something that will shock you… He said “Floyd, you see things in the ward that most members don’t (talking about people not feeling welcome), and not only that, you can feel their pain”. If that is not empathy, I don’t know what is… That has been the way I have been most of my life.

Again go look up the definition of the two words and you can understand what I said is true.

Someone who has always been LDS can have sympathy for someone trying to learn about the Gospel, because they can see the struggles of the person trying to find the truth, but they WILL NEVER know Empathy for that person, because they have never been NON LDS… Does that make it clear for you?

I have great empathy for people “SEARCHING” for the truth of the gospel… been there, done it myself… I have helped many, including those that did not join the church. Wished them well, and some of them are still good friends. I have no problem with that…

What I have a problem is people pretending to search for truth, when in actually happening is they are trying to destroy someone beliefs. I believe based solely on Mike H posts that is exactly what he is doing… I even felt the spirit telling me this… so maybe you need to take a chill pill and stop trying to judge me.

52

KC: You totally misunderstood me. I didn’t say we all have to look alike, believe identically, think alike, eat the same foods, etc. I’m a huge proponent of diversity. I’m the HR Director at my office. What I said is that people who come onto this website with a “spirit of negativity” should go elsewhere.

It’s obvious that Mike H has strong and deeply-rooted anti-Mormon beliefs. He’s spent countless hours feeding this obsession. That is completely his choice. My point is that I don’t see a place on this board for that kind of venom and negativity. Different ways of thinking like you have? Fine with me. I disagree with a lot of your left-leaning comments. But I believe that in your core you are a strong Latter-Day Saint who truly is a BYU Fan. And that’s great. That is who should be on this board. I’d be glad to meet you and spend time with you. “By your fruits you shall know them.”

But can I say the same thing about someone who focuses so much on trying to tear down and poke holes in others’ beliefs? No. And I’m not judging anyone in a spiritual sense. I’m just saying that questionable outdated anti-Mormon rhetoric shouldn’t be filling the pages of this board.

53

I don’t know Mike so it would be stupid of me to characterize him as being one way or another> I don’t mind reading his posts, they are just his opinions. I will never have the answers I might choose to want in this lifetime, so I will go with what my spirit tells me is true. I listen to general conference and I cannot discern anything being said that wouldn’t be said from the Savior himself-this installs a great feeling in my heart and actually makes me want to emulate the teachings of Christ. I have a son who has disaffected himself from the church because of the White Salamander Papers. He says President Kimball should have known they were forgeries before instructing the Church to buy them. I don’t agree-I can’t discern the rationale behind what happened-it’s really not important. I listened to President Hinkley give an impassioned account of the Sweet Water Rescue by the three boys destined for the Celestial Kingdom. BYU’s own study has rendered that version grossly exaggerated. It just goes to show you we are all human and all subject to great degrees of negativity or have a tendency to greatly over indulge our feel good stories(ie Utah National Guard and the 2000 strippling warriors). I am a great admirer of people like KC that attempt to think outside of the box and am also a great admirer or JH or Floyd who are humble and stalwarts of their faith and even Scott or Craig or Tom-the list goes on and on. I most likely would even love to have Mike for a neighbor :slight_smile: Remember God made the sun to shine on everyone. I have made my choice in mortality and nothing will deter me from the course, but I have respect to all religions that genuinely care about their fellow creations of God. I feel bad for those that have only emptiness in theirs lives to carry them to it’s conclusion.

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54

Well said, we all can learn from your approach to things, thanks for sharing.

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You have a strange definition of “wrestling with pigs” Craig. What you really mean is that refuse to listen to anything that in anyway challenges your beliefs or makes you think. That would be bad! If you can’t even read the Salt Lake Tribune, I feel really bad for you. Good luck getting through life with your head stuck in the sand.

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OK Floyd :slight_smile: I do think you are a good guy, but we shouldn’t talk religion or politics. Your comment that I was “delusional” seemed a bit harsh as did your insinuation that I didn’t get the answer you received because my heart wasn’t right (or something) but its no big deal. I’m not mad or anything. Just don’t want to offend you. Take care man.

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How can you make this claim Jim? All I did was express my opinion of how the LDS church has a history of not being fully honest with its members. I would have left it at that, but you had to let me know that I was wrong (about something as obvious as this!) and then tell me of the many proofs of Mormonism. You didn’t think that was being offensive, and neither did I! But why do you get to point out your evidence and I can’t point out mine? Somehow this is evil in your eyes? That to me lets me know that your beliefs are somewhat fear based and certainly not rational. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that, but you seem to want, no demand, that you have it both ways! You get to use your evidence but as soon as you see something you can’t explain you fall back on mysticism. Again, that’s fine, but I wonder why you would even bother with evidence at all if you get to discount it any time it goes against your presupposition?

KC is absolutely right, and he does seem to be the voice of reason on this site. He’s certainly without a doubt the most Christlike. I know some of you guys think you are absolutely right, and therefore no humility is required. But certitude is no guarantee of accuracy. Back when I was at BYU I could have made a fortune by betting on certain outcomes. So many of my LDS friends were so absolutely sure of certain things (I don’t want to state them explicitly and start another fight but I’m thinking of polyandry, racism, and other things that have been discussed on this thread that the church has admitted to only recently.) These folks were absolutely sure they were right. They told me they knew these things and that they were willing to die for them, and I have no doubt they would have if asked. But they were wrong. In the end facts and evidence are really the only way I see to come to truth but again, if you see it differently that’s fine too. I just don’t know why this approach upsets you guys so much!

Anyway, lets make a pledge to not discuss things we know we won’t agree on OK? I know you don’t believe it but I did come here to discuss football - not religion. I attended BYU at the height of football greatness and graduated a year after we won the national championship. BYU football is in my blood, and I can’t change that. I watch BYU football on a loop basically constantly. I have all of the games (even a lot of basketball games) on my DVR. I watched the Cal game again last night. I’ve watched the TX game at least 20 times. I even watched the (Northern Tennessee?? - who was that D1 team, brain isn’t working) game a few nights ago. So yes I am a fan, not a spawn of satan coming here to change anyone’s mind. I’ll be more careful about expressing my views and I will even go away if you don’t want me here. Just let me know in a private email.

  - Mike
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What did past Prophets error in? I say to you again, BY did not error. You have no proof. Only your opinion. The Brethren today have only stated that the “reasons” for blacks not receiving the priesthood were all wrong. Not the revelation to stop ordaining blacks to the Priesthood. Prove I’m wrong. Go ahead and try. If not, you are spreading false witness.

I’ll also state again that the first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord thy God. That means you can do so by keeping his commandments, all of them the current Prophet has stated. Teaching others that it’s okay to sin is not love for God.

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No conservatives are not the only ones running garbage on the web sites, but the Republicans have been out of the White House for a long time and maybe feel more driven to rack up the money tree right now than the demos. I only see what I am constantly subjected to. Really, I am a registered Democrat, even though I seldom vote that way, and I still get emails from Liberty-Patriots-Tea Party-blah blah never ending selling use of their sites to folks with the latest cure-alls in whats ailing the American persona right now to cure them of all their afflictions. Of course they do have in small print that says even though this is their web-site that they don’t necessarily agree with these, but hey it’s a free market enterprise so what if the average sap is getting bilked for millions of dollars_it’s all good-right? After all there is habeus corpus! Grasshopper-you are the poster boy for the good-old-boy Republican guard, and maybe that’s a good thing-but if you suddenly discovered the long-sought after cure for heart disease-would you be giving it away for the good of all mankind-or would you be packaging it in a neat little box to bring in millions to your desperately needy coffers or hand-scribing neat little cartoon- like episodes the are really trendy and clever that gives hope to millions but a a price that only some can afford. Interesting question, but I can almost guarantee what President Monson would be doing-giving it away for the betterment of all! All this talk about if BY was racist is a little nervy. I have a lot of relatives that today would be considered racist. It was a different era. An era where many would be considered sexist because women didn’t even have the right to vote or belong to a variety of institutions or clubs. TODAY this would be unthinkable, but then it was considered the norm by most people. Believe it or not, there was a great debate as to whether the African-American even had a soul or was just a common animal. Today we are outraged at the treatment of women by some of our Arab nations, but wake up-this has been going on at times for thousands of years not to mention slavery in virtually every country in the world. So no-I don’t believe BY was ever racist or any other prophet of the church, but if it happened today-yes-probably, I’m a great believer that things happen for a reason and at a time when it is appropriately meant to happen and I applaud everything that gives equality to all-it just has taken a long time to get to this point and it still has a long way to travel. No-Scott I am not a give it all away liberal-I still bellieve in the Ant and the Grasshopper, it just seems there are a lot more folks emulating the Grasshopper now days so change your name to the Ant please:)

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60

I was not going to reply to this topic. However, I feel that there are some misconceptions that need to be clarified. First of all, Mike, let me be the first to say that I recognize that your position is not one that is born out of neglect or lack of sincerity. It is likely that you not only sincerely considered the issues that you have accepted to be truth, you also likely anguished over these decisions prior to accepting them. Please know that I recognize this and I am not judging the process that you went through in any way. I would like you to recognize that many others have also sincerely considered the issues that you have considered and have come to different opinions and conclusions. The fact that we have come to different conclusions does not mean that we were not open enough to and/or willing enough to consider the facts any more than your conclusions indicate that you were not sincere enough in your investigation. It simply means that we came to different conclusions.
Because of the things that you have accepted as truth, there are things that appear clear and unquestionable to you, that are not generally accepted by us. An example of this is your statement that the church has a history of not being fully honest with their members. From your perspective, this is a clear and unquestionable fact. From our perspective, this is not. This, once again is not due to our inability to reason nor is it due to our lack of attention to the issues at hand. It has more to do with our perspective. There is no doubt that the church has emphasized certain faith building portions of its history while at the same time not talking about the imperfections of its leaders and members. Here, you see dishonesty, while at the same time, we see a focus on faith.
Please do not be too critical of our efforts to examine all of the evidence simply because we came to different conclusions than you did. I believe that I have examined all of the evidence that is out there. I have, at times, struggled with a various pieces of the puzzle. However, in the final analysis, I found that, for me, there was much more evidence that was in favor than there was against the gospel. Much of that evidence is personal and not something that can be demonstrated. However, in no case did I find any issue that cannot be explained.
I personally feel that the Lord will ultimately judge us, not only based on our actions, but also based on the paths we are forced to pass through. Each of our earthly experiences will be different. I feel that there are many members of the church that think that they will be placed above others simply because they attended all of their meetings throughout their lives or because they have pioneer ancestors or because they were faithful and became parents to 8.5 children. I think the gospel requires us to lift each other up in our struggles. In order to do that, we need to acknowledge the struggles of others. As is stated many times in the Book of Mormon, our lack of attention to our responsibilities may result in the state of those who have rejected the things that we have accepted being better than our state if we do not repent. In other words, we may find that God, having a complete understanding of the effort and sufferings of each one of us, may look more favorably on the individual that struggled to obtain an understanding of the gospel, only to fail to gain a testimony than he does on the individual that obtained a witness only to fail to live the gospel.

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61

The good-old-boy Republican guard I’m not. Those are progressives which I’m not. Those are the ones that want to keep the government the size it is today and just try to stop wasting money instead of really shrinking the size and influence of the federal government. That’s not me. Get rid of the IRS, EPS, Dept. of Education and many other regulating destroying departments. The Baysnores of the party are not for that. That’s why I line up with the Tea Party. However, I’m not a libertarian either.

I was talking to this young lady the other day and she is fighting for free water and every other natural resource that we use. So, I had to explain to her the water is free. And, you can do what you want with it in the bottle she was drinking from. Or, the water in the lines at where she lives. But, it takes human efforts to produce and make the containers and everything else to bring to you water in a form you can use it safely without contracting horrible diseases. The people have to be paid for doing all of this. The non-natural resources used have to be paid for because it cost money to make the materials and people have to be paid for that too. So, I would disagree with your opinion about President Monson and what he would do. Certainly if it cost nothing and was readily available to all people, why would it not be free. But, the cure for heart-disease, cancer or what ever takes people working for a living to produce. It takes computers and many other resources that has to be paid for by people who built them too. So, the “pill” would have to cost money to do so. President Monson is a rational person and would know this. Why don’t you?

I agree that progressives have changed the definition of many things like racism and sin. And, they will continue to do so until we have a totally top down government controlling our every thought. Norms have changed and continue to change. But,that’s with society as a whole. Our doctrines cannot change because of society. Our Prophets at the time have gone to the Lord to know what we should teach and how to run the Church. Commandments of God cannot change because of society either. Man does not control God.