What do you make of this?

How is it that BYU can’t get into a better conference? Our stadium of 64,000 is routinely sold out. We are on ESPN more than any other team I can think of. We play in the Marriott, I think ranked 3rd in college basketball in terms of seating. We average 8th in the nation with over 14,000 in attendance, just a few hundred under mighty Arizona

The WCC is a rec league, always will be. Outside of Gonzaga and BYU, the rec league is filled with talent that you would see in your average signup leagues. Our PG league in Utah could most likely beat 3 of the WCC teams on any given night. BYU has to do something about this.

What can BYU do? We’re a social pariah.

It doesn’t help that we’ve underperformed in the WCC, either. If it’s such a garbage league, and we can’t finish higher than 3rd, remind me again why we should be in a better league? That’s the “basketball” argument against us. The real argument is that the Church is being ostracized.

I think the time is coming (it’s not imminent, but it’s coming) where BYU will not be accredited unless the Church capitulates on some things. Then, it won’t just be that we’re a sports outcast — BYU degrees will be worthless in the world. And, if things are headed that way, there’s no reason to think that BYU sports will somehow be more attractive to conferences. It will be less attractive.

The Big12 thing is just a taste of how likely we are to be invited into any more conferences.

Tough questions and predicament.

  • Adding new members splits money thinner and doesn’t move the needle for a better TV deal (except e.g. Texas - SEC). Adding a middling team makes no sense.
  • Conferences care about research money, medical schools, and Ph.D. programs over undergraduate education. The Church’s purposes don’t match up with that.
  • Even if we dominated football/basketball, there are sticky religious issues and there is only so much we can do about appeasing them. There are several issues: no play on Sunday, social issues, and a general distaste is a real thing in academia (I work with academics from all over the country and I know it first hand).
  • To reiterate, we haven’t dominated the big cash sports…
  • I do foresee a future problem where BYU degrees are discredited for political motives. Funding isn’t the issue, but accreditation is a real threat from these people. No matter how nice we play, there are divides we face and we will see their negative effects.

I have no answer solving the long-term problem. We can, and I think we ought to, invest in sports like a business that will give returns. We can excel at that. But that’s not going to make people like us. At the end of the day, I think we can only worry about ourselves and playing the hand we’re dealt to the best of our ability. If other people screw us over, fine, we’ll work that problem when it comes.

A short term suggestion (10 years): Make your own conference based on the idea of a smaller group of excellent teams with a few middling teams and a couple consistent bottom teams. Sell it on the idea of being the premier national conference with teams all over

Service academies - 3
Religious schools - BYU, ND, St. zags (BB only), xavier
Disgruntled big names - USC, Texas, somebody else?

Maybe this is poorly thought out, but I see it as viable.

I think I just heard Ron Uharriet’s head explode. :laughing:

I don’t think anything will happen with conferences until 2024, when the next seismic realignment will happen. And, we will probably be living in a vastly different world, then. That’s six years from now.

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LOL. I love Ron.

2024 was my thought as well. But you got to lay the groundwork now. Develop those relationships!

In all seriousness, I have no idea where things will be in 25 years. Do the best you can and enjoy what you got while it lasts. And if the church decides that BYU doesn’t need sports in 25 years…I’ll pour out a little diet coke.

I don’t see anything happening other than the status quo. Our football program took a major step backward last season and what major conference would want us? We would have been middle of the pack in most mid major conferences and 2nd tier in a few. Right now we offer nothing in football. In basketball we are 3rd best in a mid major conference. The best we can hope for in the foreseeable future is to win the WCC in basketball and excel as an independent in football. If we can do that the fan base should be happy and stop with the grandiose delusions of athletic dominance in the big money sports. To get to the elite level in the big money sports would require a major sellout by the University and it won’t happen. Forget 1984 because it was a fluke. It was fun when it happened but it was over 33 years ago and a lot has changed. The system is basically rigged so another mid major cannot win a national championship in football. It is possible in basketball but nearly impossible in football.

The church is not going to change anything regarding Sunday play, honor code, and social issues and they should not change anything. We as fans should hope the teams can perform at the highest levels possible given the current circumstances and be happy about it. Do we really want to become Alabama, Texas, Kentucky, etc? We would have to sell our souls to get there.

And I would say to all the negativism, BYU is seen on ESPN more than any other program in the country. We have a national brand. That alone makes us a player in any conversation.

One down year does not negate 40 years of football excellence. Coaches can turn BYU around in no time.

BYU has all underclassmen in basketball with SMC about to lose the core of its talent. If not this year, BYU will be making noise the following year.

There really isn’t anyting we can do till when the expansion comes around - possible 2023-25. Yes we need to stay focus in winning big games and stay away losing to G5 teams (maybe Boise State). And we are getting some good games at LES against those P5 once awhile “Wisc, ucla, Miss. State.” No thanks to LittleXII for messing around on us and including those other potential schools (ie UCF, Cinci, etc).
We have our LES (I think) & MC (definitely) that are larger in seating capacity than other G5 schools. Still don’t understand why we haven’t seen big time basketball at the MC, crazy. Maybe it was a fluke that we won the 1984 NC. Thank you that we got ESPN most of the time and so far so good. And a plus side fan base all over other places.

Fish: "BYU has all underclassmen in basketball with SMC about to lose the core of its talent. If not this year, BYU will be making noise the following "

This wcc is killing us! We try and try and we failed every single time. Just ask JH. When we get better like we are now and next year will be better but they “Gonzaga and smc” will be much better than us. They got a great team including when they got thos Zebras on their side - I know it sound stupid talk. And Dave Rose will be out coach by those two guys “Few & Bennett.” I want out of this wcc!

I am not saying BYU can’t have an excellent football program again and do it as an independent. They can have nationally ranked teams on occasion, go to bowl games nearly every year, and beat Utah about 50% of the time, but I think the prospect of them being in a power 5 conference is slim and I don’t believe they will ever be nationally relevant in the same sense as a power 5 team can be at a top 10 level every year, but I think they can get to the level of a Boise St. and I would be happy with that given the parameters BYU has to work with.

I am a bit more positive about basketball. There is no reason BYU can’t become a Gonzaga but forget about being in a big time conference. Butler and Gonzaga both came close to winning national championships without being in a power 5 conference. It is easier in basketball than in football where it is nearly impossible for a mid major to win a national championship. Make the tournament and win. It vastly easier to recruit a final four caliber team in basketball than it is to recruit a final 4 football team for the exclusive 4 team playoff. In basketball BYU can find a few stars and surround them with good role players. In football you have to have a roster loaded with 4 star recruits, and a few 5 star recruits, year after year to be on an elite level. I don’t think the recruiting pool is big enough for BYU to ever do that. I think the basketball recruiting pool is big enough for BYU to get close to an elite level.

BYU had a final 4 caliber team with Jimmer in 2011.The Brandon Davies suspension knocked that team off the rails. Three guys who played in the NBA were on that team; Davies, Collinsworth, and Jimmer and there were 3 other excellent players on it. That team never had any luck and still made the sweet 16. Chris Collinsworh, who was an excellent post player had a career ending knee injury early in the season and then you couple that with the Davies suspension and a final four team was reduced to a sweet 16 team. Yeah I believe BYU can occasionally be an elite BB team and should be a consistently excellent mid major football team.

I am not as negative as you may think but I believe expectations have to be grounded in reality. I am actually very hopeful about the future of the BB program. If everybody important returns next year it could be a great year. Add Emery, Andrus, and RM Gavin Baxter and the worry will be keeping everybody happy with playing time. There will depth at every position and the worry will be creating an unselfish team with good chemistry. I think Rose has recruited very well.

People need to stop worrying about being in the WCC and just reach parity with Gonzaga. There is no reason BYU can’t reach parity with Gonzaga.

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Ron isn’t going to like most of these comments. His head may explode.

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You and I think along the same lines. Very well written argument on BYU’s ability to field a great team every once and a while. Andrus and Baxter can give us the depth we missing today. BYU will always have good guards but its the big boys that get you to championships… The addition of Coach Shroyer is also a big factor.

As I write this, I noticed that Lawless Republic alludes to the same argument.

Here is the perspective from a Texas fan:
Burnt Orange • 19 hours ago
Ron, Ron, Ron, with all due respect your argument falls flat and disregards the fact that two schools run the BIG 12: Texas and Oklahoma. More importantly, Texas has the vast majority of,the power in the conference. Outside of those schools, the rest of them are along for the ride. Texas and Oklahoma call the shots and are the “crown jewel” that other conferences want to join their respective conferences, once the current tv contract expires. There is no loyalty amongst any member of the Big 12; only loyalty to getting paid top dollar (which these schools are achieving right now). Where will loyalties fall as the year 2025 approaches? Truly, each school is the “captain of their respective ship”. So, if I were the remaining schools, I would pull a Texas A & M joining the SEC and bolt now for another conference or boltto another conference as the year 2025 gets closer. For right now, they will reap the benefits of being associated with UT & UO. This is unfortunate for BYU and BSU (which are two,excellent programs). The fact they do have an ESPN contract means one thing: ESPN gets these schools at a cheaper rate vs schools in a P5. It stinks, it truly does (as I am a BYU grad) but it is the reality.
The only two ways the BIG 12 conference does survive is: Scenario 1) Other P5 conferences will not allow Texas to be the biggest guy in the room (as they are now in the BIG 12) and get their way all the time as they do now; thus further enticing Texas to remain adamant on keeping the BIG 12 alive or Scenario 2) a media company throws so much $$$ at the BIG 12 Conference that they make more $$$ than they would in comparison to being a member of another conference. Outside of that, the BIG 12 is done in 2025.

Malty17 Burnt Orange • 2 hours ago
Reread the article, “Ron, Ron, Ron” agrees with you. You pretty much stated what he says (although he tossed in a couple realignment scenarios–although TCU and Bayor won’t ever be in the PAC).

Burnt Orange Malty17 • an hour ago
First, I did read the article. Second, I’ve looked at your responses throughout this discussion thread and it is very apparent you think you know more than others. That’s fine, you can respond as you wish. The author posed a question and then tried to provide a solution to help generate some narrative that BYU will help the BIG 12 stay alive. I disagree with his question and solution. The question and his solution are not even in the minds of the BIG 12. I am simply highlighting a well known fact to UT alums and students that Texas has the LHN network and gets more $$$ from that network than most schools in the nation and they will not share that revenue with any other school in the nation. Once that contract expires; than UT will look for a similar financial offer/ influential offer from another conference or a similar arrangement from its current media provider or another media provider. UT and Oklahoma don’t need BYU to keep the BIG 12 alive. Not now, not ever. That’s the facts. The actions of the BIG 12 only confirm what most of us know, BYU is/will be on the outside looking in when it comes to a P5 conference inclusion for the foreseeable future. His scenarios of expansion only work, if the 8 schools in the BIG 12 not named UT and Oklahoma are desired by the other P5 conferences. That’s up,for,debate. The best thing for BYU to do is focus on what it can control and execute its game plan.

You are correct, 1984 was a fluke, and college athletics has changed so much since then that I dont really see BYU becoming relevant in basketball either, except, perhaps in the WCC. Players with NBA or Europe potential, arent sticking around for 4 years of college. Can you imagine BYU with Childs and Mika this year? Can you imagine BYU without Childs or Bryant next year-not saying it will happen, but Childs is developing a name and I’m sure both Bryant and Childs will be getting offers after this year. Teams like Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina and even Gonzaga have the ability to reload every year with tremendous incoming talent, sometimes 10 players deep. Its a luxury BYU doesnt have and probably never will. I’m just watching them and enjoying them getting better and hopefully occasionally knocking off a power house, but they operate under a huge disadvantage with school policies and I think a lot of athletes are already being cut some slack with the honor codes.

All I ask is to destroy St. Mary’s 2, maybe 3 times in the same season. They are by far the team I most want to beat. Them having a down year as we swing up would thrill me. [quote=“aro, post:9, topic:7821”]
If everybody important returns next year it could be a great year. Add Emery, Andrus, and RM Gavin Baxter and the worry will be keeping everybody happy with playing time. There will depth at every position and the worry will be creating an unselfish team with good chemistry. I think Rose has recruited very well.

People need to stop worrying about being in the WCC and just reach parity with Gonzaga. There is no reason BYU can’t reach parity with Gonzaga.


Yes. Enjoy it. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy yelling at refs and gripping as much as the next guy, but in reality, that’s just a part of how I enjoy it. That said, you have to play the cards you’re dealt. There’s always an outside chance of getting into a p5 or some other arrangement. But let’s just focus on winning and let the chips fall where they may. I’m happy to root for this team even, or especially, when they give me things to gripe about and overanalyze.

Burnt Orange Malty 17. Great post. I agree with you completely. BYU can only do what it can do.