Haws has greater upside. Just the facts.
I love that reply hopper. Haws may have higher upside. However, what facts are you basing your stmt on? Points allowed? Rebounds? TO"s? Minutes allowed on the court by the coaching staff? Whether the team wins or loses if you are allowed more than 10 min of pt? Personal fouls? Higher upside is a potentially true stmt but⌠Just the facts�??
That is a fact. And if you are a coach, you make sure you are playing that player with the greater upside. The one that can get shots off and make his free throws. The one that creates shots for himself and others like Mikaâs slams. Need to open your eyes.
I donât want to be so negative on TJ. One thing for sure that he is no Mattie Me Carlino guy where he would just shoots too much. Mattie Me sometime his shooting would go in like wildfire but too many bricks in many games. I saw Marty Haws can play pretty good defense. But his boys and Jimmer didnât play much defense and why is that? Dave Rose need to slow down just a little bit so they can get back to other end to work on their defense. As for Beo and the rest of the bench (including Destrup), they need to play more when we get some 15 points lead. Those starters are running out of gas most of time. I am going to watch two games tonight BYU/SD & GU/SMC at the same time.
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Its not too hard to compare Hawsâ and Beoâs stats. Just go to the BYU basketball home page. Its all there except for points allowed. So Haws has played 3.74 minutes for every minute Beo plays (558 vs 149 min). If you calculate the stats for the âper min playedâ basis, you can get a fair comparison of their games. Based on âper min playedâ you get the following results:
Both players have almost identical field goal shooting percentage. But, Haws has 1.4 times more attempts and makes per min of play compared to Beo. In other words, he is more productive offensively.
On 3 pt shooting, Haws takes 1.55 times more attempts and has 1.4 times more makes than Beo. Again, Haws is more productive offensively.
On free throws, Haws gets to the line 1.15 times more than Beo but makes 3.1 times more free throws on a per min played basis. Advantage Haws.
On rebounds, Haws and Beo are virtually tied but Beo averages more offensive rebounds and Haws averages more defensive rebounds. Slight advantage to Beo since offensive rebounds are more valuable.
On fouls committed, Beo fouls 2 times as often as Haws. That could mean more free throws to the other team but it could also mean that Beo plays more physical defense. Advantage to Beo.
On Assists, Haws has 1.25 times more than Beo per min of play. Advantage Haws.
On turnovers, Haws has 4.9 times more turnovers than Beo per min of play. Huge advantage for Beo.
On Blocks, neither player has any.
On steels, Haws has 1.12 times more than Beo. Slight advantage to Haws.
On total points scored per min, Haws has 1.6 times more than Beo. Advantage Haws.
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Jimmer didnât play defense because heâs all round Mr. Shooter. He could create his shots. Beo canât. Not yet anyways. I hope he does get better but Haws is a stronger, quicker by far player. And he does work hard on defense. Hawks is right. He needs more all around body strength to be able to react quicker and stay in front of quicker guards.
Beo may have been all around HS player in Washington but he most likely didnât play the same caliber players around the country Haws did. But, if heâs all world like you guys think he is, then he will show it on the court and at the free throw line.
Thanks for pulling the stats in Glenn. Very informative.
The entire comparison between Beo and Haws is unfair. Haws plays the point. While Beo could play the point, he has never been given the chance and he is forced to play the role of shooting guard. Point guards assist, shooters shootâŚ
âŚBut Haws is a starter and has the green light, Beo is supporting cast and wears the âdo no harmâ moniker. Really the only place we could and should compare is at the FT line and Beo has struggled.
With 4 strong guards, Beo has to earn his way, and I think he has earned it.
Totally agree fish, but who do you think started it? Grasshopper of course⌠and even then, his analytical comparison doesnât make sense. Glenn made the âjust the factsâ comparison and that is good enough. Thanks to Glenn. I donât want to compare at all. I am only trying to state how I think each could improve at this point in time. Grasshopper thinks Haws plays good defense so Iâm not sure what the grasshopper is watching. Haws is physically weak and gets knocked around a lot. In my opinion though, he has great court sense and awareness. He anticipates well and uses his skills to great advantage on the offensive end.
He is not Jimmer at all, it is a different skill set. He will improve but I donât think it is âupsideâ, except on defense. He has a lot of upside on defense because he canât really go any lower. 
Jimmer lived on double teams and still made the shot. Haws, with all the talent on this team would be benched if he acted like Jimmer.
But Beo could average 15 points on this team or any other WCC team if he were not buried by so many older players.
Not sure if he has mission plans after this season, anybody know?
Finally some good analysis. Beo should play in rotation and about 10 minutes. One other thing, Beo often is in when the other teamâs 1st stringers are NOT in. So, making some of the comparisons isnât valid.
Beo would make a lot more turnovers if he were to play the point against 1st stringers. Heâs a 2 guard.
Not good enough. Stats donât tell the whole story. Like if the starters on the opposing team are resting while Beo is in. (The answer is yes) are we in a tight game when heâs in or not makes a difference. Beo is a shooting 2 guard. But, he is rarely open. When he gets to the foul line heâs bad. Hopefully he will get better.
I like Beo a lot. He is known as an explosive offensive player from high school. He was a 79% free throw shooter in high school so it is just a matter of getting comfortable at the line and his numbers will go way up. Childs was a 60% free throw shooter in high school. He started out poorly but now heâs around 60%, just like he was in high school. I watched Beo in warm ups at St Marys and he was knocking down 3s from all over and dunking with ease. He is a very skilled player and will develop into a solid contributor. He was a preferred walk-on but was awarded a scholarship when one came available. He is LDS and loves the gospel. I havenât heard he has announced a mission but I would be surprised if he didinât.
Wait GlennâŚ
Are you using facts and personal observation to back up your comments? That isnât necessary⌠because all you really need is some coaching experience from 25 years ago and a class at BYU with Frank Arnold.
right grasshopper?
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Whoa Glen, good numbers but not even close to the reality of the situation. Let me put a disclaimer out before I go on. I am not in favor of benching Haws for Beo. My contention is that Beo deserves some of the Hawsâ minutes as well as Emerysâ and Rosesâ. Maybe 5 to 6 minutes from each guy plus Beoâs own minutes which are about 9 minutes a game because it will make BYU a better team by making Haws, Emery, Rose and Bryant better players and more accountable. When Emery, Haws, and Rose get tired they make lots of mental and physical mistakes ⌠as well as defensive issuesâŚcase in point ⌠San Diego.
What would be more interesting (and fair) to do is to take the minutes that Beo has played in total this season and compare Hawsâ stats at that point in the season so that Hawsâ minutes are equal to Beoâs. That would be a more fair comparison, right? It is still a little unfair to Beo because he plays about 9 min/game and Haws is about 31 min/game. Much harder to perform on less court time coupled with the fact that Haws is green lighted and Beo is not.
So here it goes for the first 180 minutes of this season for both players. That is ironically, 4.5 games of playing time. The Haws supporters keep saying that he is rusty and needs more time to get into his groove and show everyone he is really good on offense and defense, but that rule obviously needs to apply to everyone, not just Haws. To be fair, I threw out a desperation heave from Haws before halftime of the Valpo game from his stats and one desperation shot from Beo to beat the shot clock (passed to him with less than a half second on the shot clock by Haws against StMarys). Equal and fair!
Min per game Haws 31 and Beo 9
FG% Haws 36% and Beo 41%
3pt % Haws 41% and Beo 42%
FT % puts Haws at 76% (15 made) and Beo at 30% (4 made of a total of 13 shots)
Off Reb gives Haws 2 and Beo 3
Def Reb gives Haws 18 and Beo 15
Assists is Haws 17 and Beo 13 (who should have more assists a pt guard or shooting guard?)
Steals gives Haws 7 and Beo 5
PFâs is Haws at 14 and Beo 18
TOâs gives Haws 11 and Beo 3 (a point guard should probably have more TOâs)
Total points is Haws 69 and Beo 38
Points for the opponent off TOâs from Haws and Beo was 16 for Haws and 3 for Beo. This is the type of stat that people forget about.
Now, over-all, I would still give the bb advantage to Haws, but it is really close on offense. Remember that despite the way defense is de-emphasized by BYU coaches, it is still half of the game in the real world. When you compare the first 180 minutes of playing time for each player and only look at plus/minus and defensive liabilities the Haws/Beo comparison becomes much more of a war of opinions. Beo is a better defensive player that Haws by more than a little bit. Suffice it to say that Haws receiving more than 3 times the playing time of Beo isnât statistically sound. I donât want to pound Haws on defense because enough people are jumping on him, but Beo has a plus minus and an opponents scoring deferential that leads to a big question about why the coaching staff is giving more than 31 minutes a game to HawsâŚI will leave it at that. At this point, I am ok with Beo not getting any playing time and giving it all to Haws, because looking at the numbers, unless Bryant starts at PG and produces 20 pts/game and Emery and Haws get 15 each a game BYU is sunk. LJ doesnât factor into the picture as a starter if we want to win. How Haws, Emery and Bryant do, will determine how well this team does and how the coaches will be judged for their application of playing minutes. If Haws and Emery continue to get 32 to 35 min a game, BYU will lose to all good teams and some terrible teams at away games. I say let the coaches bury themselves by not associating playing time with performance on BOTH ends of the courtâŚwhich is exactly what they are doing now anyway! Donât play Beo, Leifson, Dastrup, or Guinn (who I have said all along is needed for defense against certain teams, even in a starting role occassionally) or other reserves unless you absolutely have to. I just want to see the the starters perform like the coaches and the pundits say they can at 30 plus min/game. I donât even mind if they carry it through next season just so everyone can see the proof of good coaching decisions with big time minutes rewarding players who donât have the threat of being taken out of a game for poor decisions and lack of effort or concentration. Donât hold your starters accountable and pretty soon the fans and media will hold the coaches feet to the fire by articles and non attendance at games.
The Chinese have an old proverb, âMore words count less.â 
Okay, your thoughts are full of errors. First, you canât only look at statistics. Haws plays when the opposing teamâs starters and best players play. Yes, the subs square up sometimes with the starters but mostly not.
Then, it wasnât Beo that played good defense against their hot shooter. It was Guinn.
I agree with you that the starters play too many minutes and tire out making mistakes. But, Beo and others should get some time.
Yes, it was too long⌠All the short posts donât seem to get through to you⌠Trying a different approach. Beo has been in games with starters but if you think like that, you have to give Beo more credit for having to play at the end of games after they are over in garbage time⌠And not shooting when BYU is way ahead. He could have better stats!!
Beo is in a against the starters half the time or less than Haws, Rose or Emery. As I said, I have no problem with him playing more to give the starters rest time. 15 minutes a game at this point and not making free throws is being generous
I hope he goes on a mission too. If he doesnât, he will transfer because he will not sit around and watch Emery, Haws and Bryant suck up all the playing time down the road.
I was a bit despondent after the San Diego loss. Its just the realization that the season is pretty much shot in terms of making any kind of noise on the basketball scene. I donât want to be a âglass half fullâ type of guy and I said I would wait to see how the season played out before making an assessment on the season. At this point, it is a matter of watching the games for fun and maybe taking in some volleyball. Hereâs to hoping this team can figure things out sooner rather than later!