Brad Rock, DEsert News Just Lost Credibility With me. How do you feel?

Football
41

KC Black,

(KC Black) "Sorry, fans who use the MTN channel as a reason not to return don’t understand the current mwc TV deal. “

(Ronald) I am not one that uses the MTN channel as a reason not to return.

Instead, my reason for not wanting to return to the MWC is that I do not want to retreat and go backwards, but instead, I want to forge forward and catch up with our former conference mates, Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, and TCU. At one time, we were a peer group. They forged ahead and left us behind.

It is time for us to make the effort and pay the price to catch up with our former peer group. They are not better than us. They were just more focused and found more importance to get ahead in football than we have been.

(KC Black) "Boise state this year will play 8 games on ESPN and the other 4 on CBS sports. The mwc championship game will also be on ESPN”.

(Ronald) Boise State has had much success this past 5 years. They deserve the attention. Two great BCS bowls opens eyes for those to see. Thanks for the information. I was not aware that all of their games had National Exposure. I am happy for them.

(KC Black) "Fans who were too cheap to pay for the MTN killed the channel, and if you can’t see the difference between the mwc TV deal today and back when we were in, you are not paying attention”
.
(Ronald) Why the attack? I never made any connection with the TV schedule or with the MTN or any other issue regarding exposure.

My drive is to keep us an Independent for as long as it takes to get an invite from a P5 conference.

Besides, some great fans with children, choose to put food on the table over paying for the MTN. If they can not do both at the same time, this is not being cheap. Instead it is being a responsible person. I am a hugh BYU Cougar Football Fan, but if I had to choose, feeding my children would come first. Fortunately, that has never been an issue in my family. We have been blessed.

(KC Black ) "Side note, Byu played a huge role in creating the MTN as a member of the mwc, we only have ourselves to blame for that debacle. And the current byutv football broadcasting we run in the red btw. It’s not a profit center, it’s a debt.”

(Ronald) Interesting side note. I have no reason to disagree and I have no reason not to believe you, however, I would like to know where you are getting your facts from, for verification, that BYUtv is running in the Red for football broadcasting. My guess is that the football broadcasting brings in more revenue than any other single programing for the same period of time on the air. (Just a guess. No factual information),

Also, I would agree with you that BYU was a key player in breaking away from the 16 team WAC, bringing with them the best 8 teams to form the MWC leaving the 8 weakest team to stay with the now debunked
WAC.

I also agree that we were a key player in forming the MTN TV and share in the responsibility for it’s failure.

But none of this has anything to do with MY wanting us to stay Independent until such time as we get an invite to join a P5 conference. My push is to be ready, if and when there is an opening for new membership among the P5 conferences.

I am not finding fault with the MWC or with any G5 conference or with any FCS Conference. Instead, my fault lies for our unwillingness to make the necessary sacrifices and in some cases, not all, but some cases to make compromises that otherwise keep us from that big coveted invitation.

42

RB Black,

I love your posting above.

( RB) "As a fan, I believe that Brad Rock is entertaining a logical fallacy.” (Logical Fallacy// Iove it)

"He states that playing Wagner is more embarrassing than returning to the MWC,”

(Ron) I agree with Brad on this one. However it is very close, as going back to any G5 conference is an admission that we are not as good as our former Conference Peers. (Arizona/Arizona State/Utah/TCU) This list keeps growing.

We must continue to pay the price of catching up and proving our football worth.

(RB) "According to last year’s final Sagarin Ratings, which include both FBS and FCS divisions, Wagner was #180. Unfortunately, UNLV was ranked 172, San Jose State was ranked 153, New Mexico was 132 and Wyoming was 126. All of these teams had multiple lower division teams ranked ahead of them in the ratings. So, Brad Rock would have us trade playing a bad Wagner team for playing four or five bad teams every year. Additionally, the highest MWC team was ranked 36. Next year, we play multiple teams that finished the year ranked higher. If we were to move back to the MWC and we went undefeated, we would be in the same New Year’s day bowl that Boise State went to last year. If we went undefeated 12 years in a row, we would not get to the 4 team playoff. Our strength of schedule would be too low to qualify.

With our current schedules, if we go undefeated, we at least have a chance for the playoff.”

(Ronald) I agree with you. It is very frustrating. The only way out is to get into a P5 conference and we as fans, as well as players, and coaches and AD, and University administrators, must be willing to do what it takes to get us to that next level and rejoin those that use to be our peers, before moving forward, leaving us behind.

(RB) If getting to a New Year’s bowl game is our goal, return to the MWC may be a viable option. It is not a viable option if we want to go to the playoff.

(Ronald) I agree with you, however, getting a New Years bowl or getting into a P4 playoff, or getting any bowl game or getting any 10-2 or 11-1, or 12-0 winning season is not what is important to me at this time. And I stress, (at this time). Instead, what is important to me, at this time, is to do all the right things to get the invitation for the next opening into a P5 conference.

I repeat as often as necessary until it catches hold with the decision makers, that as an Independent P5 team, for programing purposes, we must act like a P5 team and we must distant ourselves from being a G5 like team. In the minds of all football fans, and teams, and conferences, there must be no doubt about us being a P5 Independent team, like ND has no doubt already regarding, being recognized as a P5 team. We still have a way to go.

We act like a P5 team by programing at least 9 P5 teams each season. We prepare to win most of them if not all of them. We must never again schedule an FCS team, since at the close of the 2014 season, no P5 conference team may schedule a FCS team. We must play within the same SOS schedule as any other P5 conference team. If that means 6-6 or 7-1, or 8-2 seasons with our new SOS so be it. Those seasons will be more meaningful than the 9-3, 10-2, 11-1 or 12-0 seasons of before with the SOS programing that we have had in the past. Programing patsies to give us continuos 10-2 or better winning season with continuos meaningless bowl games are in the past. The eyes of the fans has been opened by the once peer group that we were once a part of, but have now been left behind. The old way of doing things are gone forever as is our naivety.

43

I hate to be the one to point this out, but we lost to 3 MWC teams last year. How many did we beat? Zero. And we lost our bowl game to a G5 team that hadn’t had a winning record for years before last year. I’d love to believe we’re too good for the MWC. But where is the evidence?

44

I recognize that your point is still valid; however, we did beat UNLV last year. They are still in the MWC.
I do question whether or not singling out 2014 as an example considers the complete evidence. We could just as easily examine BYUs performance in 2013 (3-0 vs MWC) or their performance in 2012 (3-2) or 2011 (3-0). The fact that they had 1 year where they lost all but 1 of their games does not indicate a dominance on the part of the MWC.
I don’t think that BYU should avoid returning to the MWC because we are better than they are. I believe we shouldn’t return because there is less opportunity available there than there is looking at other options.

1 Like
45

I do agree we are better than most MWC teams most years. We were not on the top of the conference when we left though, and I don’t think we would be now. I don’t think we had a single year where we went undefeated in the MWC did we? Of course you’re right that we shouldn’t go back if we have better options. We’ll see if they come to fruition. I’m still skeptical and I don’t think being independent is a good place to be long term. I say that of course only from my perspective as a fan. College football was way more fun for me before, because I could watch ‘our’ conference perform in other venues as well. I find I care a lot less now. Also, the first loss of the season means much more than it used too. I’m not sure at all we would have lost 4 games in a row last year if we have a bit more to play for.

46

We were undefeated in 2006, 2007 and we had one loss in 2009. In Mendenhall’s 6 years in the MWC we were undefeated twice, had one loss once, had 2 losses once and had 3 losses twice. We went 39-9 in conference for an overall win percentage of 81%. The only team that beat us in overall win percentage was TCU and that was due to us having a meltdown in 2010 due to the Riley/Heaps debacle while TCU went 8-0. Prior to 2010 we had the highest win percentage in the conference. So, yes, I would say that we were at least at the top of the conference.
I agree, being independent is not the best option long term. However, I think it is a better option than the MWC long term. The best option long term is to play in a P5 conference. Unfortunately, that has not happened yet. The next best option is to create another conference that contains the best of those left out of the P5. Independence is the next after that. Disbanding the football program and returning to the MWC are somewhere lower than independence.
I agree that the primary issue with independence is lack of ability to play for anything after the first loss.

47

RBBlack.

I like your style of writing and I agree with all that you said in this post. Thank you.
Just a reminder: Most of BM success came while using the recruits of Gary Crowton and
most of that time was before we started the new, stronger SOS in 2013.

Many times I have posted that starting a new conference, if we could get teams to agree, might come in the
form of a, (different kind of Independence), where those opting to have their own TV contracts may do so independent from the rest of the conference like Texas, ND. and BYU and a few others.

For those interesting in cheering for or against Religious teams and those that are Patriotic and love to cheer for the military or those teams, from those that are war protesters, I thought that this new Independent (type) conference would be not only interesting, but very successful among both the lovers and the haters of the conference.

We would have to make our conditions so attractive for those returning from P5 conferences meeting all of their conditions that are possible.

SASC (Church and State Conference)
Church: State:

ND ARMY
Baylor NAVY
TCU Air Force
Boston College Citadel
BYU ?
Utah ?

48

Miked H. (Herrick?)

I think that we went 12-0 in the MWC under Gary Crowton when we were ranked #5 in the Nation. I think we lost our 13th game in Hawaii vs Hawaii. We got the 13th game because of the travel cost to Hawaii.

For me, a bowl game vs a G5 team is not nearly as important than playing an annual schedule like 2015, Nebraska, Boise State, UCLA, Michigan,and Missouri.

In 2016, we play Arizona, Utah Utes, UCLA, West Va., Michigan State, Mississippi State, Boise State, Miss St.

In 2017 we play LSU, Utah Utes, Boise State, Miss State, and UMass.

In 2018 we play Arizona, Washington, Boise State, Utah Utes, and Wisconsin.

2019 it’s Va. USC, Washington, Washington State, Boise State, Utah, and Wisconsin, and similar schedules go through 2027.

If we go back to a G5 conference i.e. MWC, C-USA, AAC, Big Sky, or MAC, we will be near the top of any of those conferences and we will get a bowl game every year and we can pound our chest saying how great we are, but the teams we will be playing will be teams like Fresno State, San Jose State, SDS, etc.

For me, being an Independent P5 Independent team is far more exciting than being in a conference where you know before the season starts, that your chances of being the Champion of the mid major conference is pretty good and that you are guaranteed a nothing bowl game each year. Think about the trade off.
(One bowl game vs a whole season of respectable games)

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Ron, its Mike Harris. Thanks to you and rblack for that info. I had not realized we had done so well in the MWC. I guess it was the phenomena of ‘recency’ that was clouding my memory.

50

Mike H (Herrick?)

Yes, I am well aware that we went 0-3 vs MWC teams. How sad. Such humiliation.

Fist TCU, Utah, Hawaii, Houston all earn BCS Bowls.
Next TCU and Utah gets P5 conferences while we get rejected from getting any invitation to a respected P5 conference.

Next we let Utah State have a very rare win against us.

Next we start losing those games that we were favored to win, (Utah and Washington),

next we end up with a 3 loss no win season against our old MWC that we use to think that we were the best of and now,

we are considering quitting our position of being a P5 Independent team because keeping up is just more effort than we want to spend.

No it isn’t the money. While making far less than we would make as a P5 conference team, we do make far more than any G5 conference team so we can’t use money as an excuse.

No, we just do not put football high enough on our priority list.

Now we wonder why our ticket sales are dropping. Who wants to support a quitter not willing to do what is necessary to achieve?

What a sad era for BYU football this past 11 years has been.

51

Well, one other option would be to do as ND did. Make an agreement with a conference for a stable set of games and stay independent. I would rank that 2nd or 3rd on your list.

52

I agree, that would rank very high, probably second.

1 Like
53

Mike HARRIS,
thank you for joining us in the conversation.

How do you feel about us even consider going back to the MWC or
for that matter, going back to any Group of 5 mid major conferences?

How do you feel about our considering the easy way out so we don’t have to play
the more difficult teams on our schedule?

Would you rather lose half of the games playing teams like USC, LSU, Michigan, Nebraska, UCLA, Oregon,
Missouri, Arizona, Arizona State, Va., Utes, Michigan State, Washington, Wisconsin, Washington State, and Stanford, all of which we already have scheduled, or

would you rather win all of our games vs. San Jose State, Fresno State, San Diego State, Idaho, Idaho State, Savanna State, Weber State, Wagner, Unlv, etc.?

Finally, would you be more proud of our team, win or lose, if we keep fighting to get ahead, of if we give up and quit and take the easy way out?

We can not blame finances for quitting. While indeed, we make far less than any P5 team in a conference, we do make far more than any mid major team as a P5 Independent for programing purposes than any mid major G5 team.

If we quit, it has to be because we don’t want to work to get ahead. We would rather be the King Pin in a conference that has no relevance because it is easier.

54

RbBlack,

If you agree that of which we speak is high enough to rank second, what would you rank as #1?

Honest question(???)
I like the way you think and most of the time I agree with your assessment or opinions.

Your #1 choice may open my eyes to see a different direction.

Ron

55

Russ,

Would you really rather play in a G5 (mid major) conference, playing almost all mid major teams, so that you
might earn a good single bowl game, or

Would you rather forgo having that possible chance, if we beat out everyone else among the mid-majors with a 11-1 season or 12-0 season, in order to keep our already scheduled P5 teams vs. Nebraska, UCLA, Michigan, Missouri, Arizona , Arizona State, Utah Utes, West Va., Michigan State, LSU, Washington, Wisconsin, USC, Va, and Stanford, all of which we already have scheduled, but all of which will have to cancel if we are no longer recognized as and Independent P5 team for programing purposes.

As for me, I would rather never again play a bowl game or win a conference championship, in order to play all the P5 teams that we already have scheduled to play.

Think about it------One bowl game vs a whole season of quality games and all the respect that comes with it.

56

Ronald,
I was agreeing with the comment by RussBerkmoes in which he gave an option of making an agreement with a conference for a stable set of games. That would, in my opinion, be second to actually joining a conference.
My options are as follows:

  1. Joining a P5 conference.
  2. Making an agreement with a P5 conference for a stable set of games.
  3. Creating another conference out of the best of those left out of the P5.
  4. Remaining independent.
  5. Disbanding the football program.
  6. Joining the MWC.
    Hope that clears things up.
    Number 3 and 4 are pretty close. I could go either way depending on which teams were included. They would have to be quality teams, committed to football and there would have to be a commitment for all teams to play a quality non-conference schedule.
1 Like
57

rblack
leave out option #6 or end this FB program which I don’t want to end FB

58

Dew,
I agree, I was simply indicating where everything ranks. There may be other options that I have not listed which would rank above 5. I just don’t know what they are.

59

Option 6 join Div II - Not!

60

Never realized I said anything about joining a G5 conference. I mentioned making an agreement with another conference to get a stable set of games much like ND did with the ACC. I would prefer that to be with a P5 conference like PAC12 or Big12.