Three shots to make the NCAA this year.
Because of the stronger out of conference schedule and the less weak inside conference schedule a regular season tie or strong second with Gonzaga.
or
as ever win the Conference Tournament. No change here. Rose has never done this.
or
Do well enough out of conference, well enough in conference, (meaning second or a strong compete for second), and then make a real game of it in the tournament championship game.
Given what Rose has done in the past, the diciest scenario, the third, is the most likely.
Having watched Andrus, Lee, and Harding play when they were in high school (I didnât pay attention to Bergeson since I never considered his going to BYU), Iâm still surprisd that Andrus was offered a scholarship, is still on the team or that Dastrup, instead of him, is the one that is transferring. Lee I can see as the big Jake Schoff type of contributor. Harding has been somewhat of an enigma for me. He was on a good team and quietly built his stats throughout the games I watched, but I never thought of him as dominant.
Disclaimer: My observations are as a fan. I donât have the coachâs eye. But to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, when looking for a good player, I know it when I see him.
Clarify? Did you think he was too good? not a BYU guy? Of the 4 mentionedâŚ[quote=âFormerMember, post:22, topic:7978â]
Andrus, Lee, and Harding
[/quote]
I would say that Bergeson has the most upside
I didnât think that he was interested in BYU. Although after he signed, I spoke with a few coaches and he consensus was something like, âGreat kid, nice shot, no defenseâŚhe should fit right in at BYU.â
I was afraid Dastrup would leave. Based on all the off season attention to Baxter and the things I have read in various articles Dastrup was hardly mentioned at all and it was evident to me that he wasnât in the plans for the rotation. He wasnât going to get a fair shot absent some injuries. It is a pity because he had some serious talent offensively. He had a great touch, passed the ball well, and for a 6â10" guy he was ok putting the ball on the floor. He was a little slow and was not an explosive leaper like Childs but he had a big body. It is my opinion he wasnât properly used. I am sorry to see him go. That said he didnât play enough to really be missed that much. If you arenât going to play a guy you wonât miss him much when he is gone. You will only lament the loss if he does well wherever he goes (kind of like Chatman).
If Baxter is as good as advertised I am hopeful he will get some serious minutes. It seems he is Childsâ buddy and that should help him. I would like to see him replace Worthington and I would like to see Lee be good enough to push Worthington into a marginal role with Baxter, Childs, Lee & Nixon getting the minutes at the post positions with Worthington being an insurance policy. I donât see Andrus or Shaw contributing much.
This is an interesting subject from the stand point that Dastrup was a crowd favorite, an yes, I do think that he will end up somewhere, playing well, giving us more bullets to riddle Rose with if he continues to under coach. I will bring up a point and then move on as Dastrup has also closed the BYU chapter in his life and seeks his fortunes elsewhere. After asking 3 BYU coaches the same question and getting basically shoulder shrugs, I am going to throw this out there just because I hate mysteries. I was always told Dastrup had the skills, just not a high motor. And yet when he got into live games, he was all in, fired up, animated. None of the canned answers translated into what we all saw in live games. So why couldnât he get the minutes? Personally, I think it was a maturity thing. He came off the mission 50 lbs overweight. May of goofed off in practice and bought on the Coaches ire (both times I went, all I saw was a serious hard working player) and I just think Rose plays favorites and Dastrup was in the dog house.
I will agree that Baxter is getting all the hype. I watched him play at Timp. and he is maybe one of the highest recruits BYU has ever signed. Kind of reminds me a little of Kevin Durrant when he showed up at TexasâŚso Dastrup could read the tea leaves. I wish him the best.
PS. Baxter, on the day he got home from his mission went down to the Marriott (before he was even released). Baxter is very tight with Yoli, as in they were on the same AAU team together along with Frank Jackson and Conner Harding for 4 years. Baxter will make us forget about a lot of the transfersâŚbuckle up.
If Seljaas can find his shot, BYU is gonna be real good. Nixon coming off the bench, and Baxter, who going to be seeing a lot of minutes. Hardnett is super steady and Bergersen could blossomâŚthat is a team I would not want to face.
I believe Cannon is solid as well. He comes off the bench and you didnât see much of a drop off when he came in for Hardnett. On paper the pieces all appear to be in place. I hope it translates into something good on the court. There appears to be talent and good depth at all positions.
I think one of Roseâs problems in recent years has been managing the rotation. Some guys with talent get buried on the bench and then they end up leaving. Chatman and Dastrup are guys I wish BYU still had. It was too bad FB4 left. Guys like Toolson and Nielson were honestly not a big loss and nobody else who has transferred since the WCC days has been somebody who would have helped⌠BYU brought in better players as transfers than Nielson and Toolson yet I see people bring up their names as guys who got away. Nielson didnât even start at UVU last year and his whole reputation seems to hang on one fluke game he had against BYU the season before last. Toolson started at UVU but would not have been a difference maker at BYU and probably never a part of the rotation.
I would like to see Rose develop a strong 8-9 man rotation with the stars getting about 32-35 minutes. If a couple of guys played 32-35 minutes and 3 more 25-30, and the other guys 15-20 you could keep 8-9 key players happy and not wear anybody out. Of course more guys would play in blowouts and the stars shouldnât play more than about 25 minutes in those games.
I would like to see a rotation involving Childs, Baxter, Haws, Emery, Hardnett, Lee, Cannon, and Nixon and maybe one other guy, perhaps Seljass is he can return to his freshman form. I am hoping Lee is good enough to push out Worthington. I am assuming Baxter will be good and I am hoping Lee will be better than Worthington. I am hoping Bergeson and Harding will be good enough to be a reasonable facsimile of a good big guard in the mold of Bryant (I donât expect either to be as good as Bryant).
All good points, Reed, glad you brought that up. Nielson, one of my famous âstick menâ would have never been a starter at BYU. Toolson would be seeing time at BYU over a struggling Seljaas last season, his cousin that plays along side with him at UVU is the guy that should be at BYU.
Cannon certainly does not hurt us, plays with heart but he is not going to break down a defense and his shot leaves him at times. Average player who we can hide in the rotation and he certainly does not make you wince when he comes inâŚnot like Worthington. I asked Rose why Worthington gets time as a starterâŚ, Rose, âWorthington plays defense and he doesnât hurt youâ. Funny, I always thought that he did hurt us.
I could feel your wishful thinking when you were posting the minutes our starters should logâŚtwo things that I fundamentally do NOT agree with when it comes to Roseâs coaching style. Rose does not develop talent for the wars of tourney time. Blow out games should be all about getting young guys minutes. 2-wears out his studs in tough gamesâŚyou have to rest them for the big push at the end of the game. Take a minute before any TV timeouts or when the other coach rests their studs.
Same post season comments that we read every year. It is time for Rose to go. He has lost touch with where the current state of college basketball is. We have become content with mediocrity as a fan base as well as being confused by the decisions he makes as to who plays and who doesnât.
I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem, when it comes to hero ball, is coach Rose. It has been an obsession of his since the Jimmer years. I use the term years loosely because Jimmer didnât play much early on (another poor decision). But Rose only seems to be able to focus on one or two star players while he neglects the potential of other star players.
The recipe and formula, in case anyone hasnât noticed, is not working. Mediocrity in the wcc, mediocrity in the post season tournaments, mediocrity in OOC games. Just plain mediocrity all the way around.
The wcc did something to Rose and it continues toâŚ
I am not one of those who thinks Rose should go but I do have issues with the way he handled Dastrup. You mentioned Jimmer not playing much early on but he started 3 years and was all conference 3 years and All American 2 years. He didnât start as a freshman but played a lot. He played in every single game his freshman year and logged about 15-20 minutes a game and was the teams 5th leading scorer. He averaged 18.5 minutes per game according to basketball reference.com so I canât complain too much about how Jimmer was used although I thought at the time he was better than the two seniors who started ahead of him. He was basically the sixth man. A freshman who is not a coveted recruit playing 18.5 minutes a game doesnât exactly equate to not playing much. Maybe he should have played more but he played enough to develop his talents and make a contribution to a conference champion. I donât know if Jimmer not playing more than he did as a freshman was a poor decision or not. He played a lot for a freshman. Dastrup is another issue entirely. He didnât play much at all as a freshman because he was out of shape but last year he wasnât out of shape and even when he played real well in a few games where he got enough minutes to get into the flow he wasnât rewarded for it. The next game he might not play at all. I donât blame him for leaving and I am upset about a good talent being wasted and lost.
If you look back on Roseâs early years he did rest his starters more. When Jimmer was a freshman only Lee Cummard averaged more than 30 minutes a game (actually 31.5) and nobody else as much as 28 a game. Prior to 2008 nobody averaged as much as 30 minutes a game. I checked basketball reference.com and the issue with stars playing too many minutes seemed to start with Tyler Haws and Kyle Collinsworth. Maybe he quit trusting his bench at that time. Jimmer played a lot of minutes as a senior and so did Jackson Emery but nobody else on that 2011 team played as much as 30 minutes a game. My recollection was that Rose had a good bench in his early years and he used it and the statistics bear that out. I donât know what has happened.
This isnât about repentance and second chances. I am all for giving every and anyone as many chances/opportunities as they need to get their life in order and be a disciple of Christ.
This is more about just not getting the job done.
The WCC was supposed to be an opportunity for BYU to get themselves into a position to be a regular invitee to the ncaa tourney and to compete for a conference championship. When the football team decided to go independent, those same opportunities went out the window and we pinned a lot of our hopes on the basketball team.
In my opinion the team has been in a steady decline since they entered the wcc, post Jimmer era. In 6 years now there has been no adjustment or focus by the team or coaches to do what is necessary to use these now missed opportunities. There are a variety of reasons why.
I do believe the conference and officiating has been poor and favors the Gonzaga golden calf all too often. Also, Rose has mismanaged too many players and the assistants he has brought in havenât helped the situation much at all. He seems bewildered and confused about what to do and his errors with regard to utilizing talent and developing players is too obvious. How many more years of 3rd place in the wcc, NIT bids, and losing talented players will it take before something changes with Rose or his coaching style?
The Dastrup situation was a HUGE and glaring error.
Thanks for clarifying the Jimmer situation Aro. Unfortunately his greatness gave the coach a false sense of coaching ability. It isnât working now.
As Reed Omer brought up about Jimmer days we had Dave Rice who did well for us. When Dave Rose has this cancer 2009 Dave Rice took over most of the season 2009-10 and he managed to play a lot of BYU players. After Jimmer senior year Dave Rice moved on to UNLV and we moved on to wcc. Since we joined wcc everything went down hill. Both Gonzaga and SMC have been very competitive but the ref has been really frustrating of how they handle this league. I donât want to get into details about this wcc but why is Dave Rose struggling? Why not can he managed his players in getting 8-9 players rotation? Losing Payton Dastrup was big too. I like this kid and I will be watching him where ever he goes just like I do with Jeff Chatman, FB4 and some others. As far about wanting to change the coach is not mine to talk about. But I do want him to figure out getting more players involve during live games â8-9 guys rotationâ this coming season.
Ya, about the time of Haws and Collingsworth, every time they came out of the game weâd lose leads or fall further behind. We werenât as deep. More and more players started transferring as the rules changed. Itâs called liberty, freedom and capitalism. I guess most of us like socialism and dictators better?
We have more challenges than other teams because of the missionary emphasis and marriage emphasis too. When teams lose to us that always comes up that our players are more mature. Yet we donât end up national champions.
As far as players not playing in games as freshmen, Iâd like to see the old way come back with JV games. Players need to get used to college first. This didnât hurt Jabbar or Walton and others. To get in and play 30+ minutes a game with other freshman and sophomores.
Or, maybe the fans are not recognizing talent, ability and efforts properly as we used to. And when we get talent, real talent we chase them off. Maybe there were too many attacks on Bryant playing âhero ball.â Maybe not on this forum but maybe he heard it around campus. In my opinion, he was the most complete player weâve had since Ainge. And Ainge played his last year for BYU.
But, it was most likely the referees fault and probably Sternâs
Well, the big problem is after 5 or 6 players the level of play drops off dramatically. Mistakes are made and he holds players accountable by yanking them. As fans, thatâs what we have always demanded. In the past several years with players leaving if we played 9 deep we would lose 20 games a year.
See, at the other elite schools, the elite players only play a year or two and go NBA. They struggle with continuity too. We lose players because they want to play 40 minutes a game. They arenât happy with 20+ minutes a game. If they were, weâd have FB4, Chatman, Dastrup this year and Rose could rotate 9 or 10 players like SM or GU.
Nonsensical comment. If anything I think most of us here have developed the ability TO recognize these things BETTER than we did before. Speak for yourself hopper, your comment only has self application.
For example? Who was âchased offâ? Nobody. Those who have left the program did so because they saw better opportunities either collegiately or professionally. To suggest that fans on a chat board or students on campus had anything to do with a player leaving is more nonsense.
So what. Virtually nobody left college early back in the day. Use some context for your comments and people will pay attention to them.
You win with leadershipâŚBYU has a good stable of point guards. Ely will be greatly missed but Emery comes back and when you get TJ and Emery together, they have around 10 years of playing together. No one in America has that history. We also have the best big man in the WCCâŚChilds. all Juniors, all experienced. 
