That’s a mouth full. I have a question. Do you actually watch Fox News? A lot of people make statements but rarely or never watch.
Yes. All the time. I find Fox’s “hard news” reporting to actually be more reliable than most other networks, and i base that on the fact that I still try to research on my own from original sources before deciding whose characterizations I’ll accept.
I don’t think I said Romney fell for a lie. What I said is that I think he was wrong to vote for judge Brown. Based on what I heard from her she has no business on the Supreme Court and I base that on several of her positions. I also thought it was wrong for him to march with BLM based on their past actions and the ideology of their leaders. At the time he marched with them it was pretty clear that they were an organization that both parties should not sympathize with and it is even more clear now than it was then.
If somebody wants say Black Lives Matter, no problem. To participate in an organized BLM march is not okay to me. The idea of blm is good but BLM as an organization is corrupt.
Your post was great but I wanted to be clear about my comment about Romney.
As to the opinionn side of Fox News- Hannity, Tucker Carlson et al. I tend to agree with them on many, even most policy positions but I sometimes find myself shaking my head in frustration when they play into this anger/fear scenario and go with the emotional satisfaction and labeling rather than making the good sound analytical argument that could be made.
Thanks, Aro.
[quote=“BobH, post:40, topic:9391”]
. It is scary to me that even such generally thoughtful and reasonable people on the “Right” as Aro and Fish have been taken in by and become angry at Romney for “falling for a lie,” which is itself a lie. Believing lies is bad for society and for freedom, whether the lie bolsters our position or the other side’s.
Careful BOB, what you call falling for a Lie is people who have spent their lives in search for truth.
Romney would be great for Colorado or Oregon, It’s just that Utahns feel betrayed by his behavior.
I do appreciate the time you spent writing up you opinion, as I have said many times here, people who do their research are always my kind of people. So thank you, Bob.
Clarifications and apologies.
First, I apologize to Aro for including him in my post. Rereading the thread he is right. He never raised the issue of Romney’s vote on impeachment. He addressed the Supreme Court confirmation and the BLM march, neither of which I addressed.
Second, I also apologize for using the phrase “failing for a lie.” Nobody on this board used that phrase. It actually came from one of my relative’s anti-Romney rant on a family email thread and must have just slipped in there on me! (Again, another example why I don’t, and shouldn’t, post on politics very often!) I did not mean to accuse anyone of “falling for a lie” I was merely trying to point out the irony that people on the right have accused Romney of either perpetrating, falling for, or at least voting for, a lie with respect to the Russian dossier, which is demonstrably untrue. Even Fish, who as he has said, supports the idea of getting facts right based on actual research said in his post above:
“Mitt spent every effort to undermine Trump. Impeached him twice, the 1st time on a MADE UP RUSSIAN DOSSIER” and “Mitt Romney impeached a sitting President over LIES. He had the facts and let hate and ego get the best of him.”
But those statements are simply not true. Mitt never voted to impeach based on the Russian dossier. Mitt voted AGAINST that count of the Impeachment Resolution. He voted to impeach on the basis of the phone call to Zalenskyy that had nothing to do with the Russia Hoax. That is a matter of clear record. But, many people on both the left and the right believe what Fish stated, [except, of course that many on the left have never accepted the objectively true, and virtually admitted, fact that the dossier was a political hit job based on fabrication and falsehood and paid for by the Clinton Campaign.]
I have opinions, and research, on the other issues, but that was the point I was trying to use as an example of how our society has been ever increasingly polarized by the people of the country believing lies on both sides of the aisle.
As Hannity and a few others state quite often, they aren’t journalists. They are opinion commentators. They see what is happening, attempt to take their information they have to their logical opinions. The thing about what liberals, Rhino Republicans and Democrats have been doing only lead to the trouble we see going on. For decades now, so-called conservatives have been choosing moderate decisions while the liberals have been moving further and further left. If conservatives keep moving left and then choose the middle ground while the left keeps moving left as well, the whole country/world continues left and we get where we are now. There are no longer 2 genders and anarchy. You also get Hannity and Tucker using “her/she” when talking about Bruce Jenner. Conservatives and Fox has slides to left slowly but surely. Not sure if even Fox can stop the prophetic destruction coming. But, I’d try anything including getting people emotional about the eventual violent destruction coming. I’m not the prophet but we’ve had prophets in the past who have warned about this day.
At this point I feel that should explain Romney. I know him personally, guided him on a caribou hunt when he wanted to court the NRA people on his run at the presidency. He is what I would call a man who speaks out of both sides of his mouth and will cosey up to anyone to get what he wants. No saying all politicians don’t do the same thing but Romney has been doing this for many years.
I talked to Orren Hatch about Romney after he endorsed him to replace Hatch. A year Hatch said, "the biggest mistake of my career was to endorse Romney , he had caused so much harm to Republicans
You think I have sucked into the lies,
I watched these past 5 years as Romney took every opportunity to defame Trump, to take him out. And it was all over Trump passing Romney up to give a high position to someone else in his combinate. You say it is polarizing our country when we “fall for these lies”. Point the finger to where it belongs. A corrupt media, lifetime powerbrokers Pelosi, Schumer, Shieft and any republican who enriches themselves off the backs of the people. Romney reeks of the same filth.
At this point, my heroes are Joe Rogen, Elon Musk and any other American who will stand up and call out censorship and corruption.
The purpose of the media is to vet the lies from politicians and bureaucrats. But today, most media aren’t journalists. They hide the truth from the people. Twitter is where the media was getting their stories from. And, since Twitter only allowed good stories about Democrats, liberals, leftist and the Woke, there was no truth to their stories.
So, if you thought my first post was a mouthful, here is another example of why I should not post on politics. I’m not a Twitter guy. I can’t express my thoughts in 240 characters. I have to EXPLAIN myself, even when nobody else cares to hear it!
Fish, I understand that you do not like Romney. You are entitled to that opinion. My posts are not intended to try to convince you or anyone else to either like or vote for him (or to dislike him for that matter). My ONLY point about Romney in my previous posts has been the fact that Mitt did not vote to impeach Trump on the basis of the fake Russian Dossier. He did vote for impeachment based on Trump’s call to Zalenskyy threatening to withhold aid to Ukraine if Zalenskyy did not order an investigation of Hunter Biden and his father’s involvement in Ukraine energy interests. (He also publicly and vehemently criticized Joe Biden and attacked his fitness to be president for his prior dealings with Ukraine, withholding aid to kill the previous investigation of Hunter.) The votes, and the fact that Trump did make that phone call, and the transcript of the call, are all in the Congressional Record. So, Romney did not vote to impeach based on a lie. That’s it. My only Romney point.
Again, I apologize for using the term “falling for lies” and I did not mean to accuse you personally of anything. My brother made some very similar statements about Romney and he used that phrase as an attack on Romney in a recent email. In other words, he accused Romney of “falling for lies” and that is the context that was in my head when I wrote the post. After I posted, I realized that that conversation had nothing to do with this thread and contributed to misunderstanding of my point. I was trying to use your words about Romney to illustrate the point I was making. You are a bright guy and no doubt a thoughtful conservative, but even you repeated the false assertion that Romney voted for impeachment based on the Russian dossier.
I agree with you regarding the role of the media. I even pointed out the economic incentives behind their corruption. I merely pointed out that it is no longer the exclusive realm of the Leftwing media. And I agree with you about Pelosi, Shumer, Schiff, et al. But none of that changes the truth about Romney’s impeachment votes.
I agree that Romney has consistently criticized Trump. However, he has done so for far longer than 5 years. In fact, Romney was widely criticized for accepting Trump’s invitation to be interviewed for Secretary of State because he was already viewed as being firmly in the Never Trump camp and had highly criticized Trump in both of the prior Presidential campaigns. He was called a hypocrite for agreeing to have dinner at Trump’s invitation. So, it is highly unlikely, in my estimation, that Romney’s criticism of Trump over the past 5 years was motivated solely or even mostly by Trump inviting him to apply and then rejecting him. It was consistent with his statements about Trump for many years.
I, too, have met Mitt and met with him on multiple occasions. I have opinions and impressions about him from those experiences that are different from yours, and actually quite complex, with both agreements and disagreements with his positions and votes, but in general respect for him for standing up for what he believes whether I agree with him or not. (I also happened to spend a very nice evening with his parents, spending an hour or so chatting with them and then sitting next to George at the head table for a United Way event in Springfield, Illinois, many years ago. Long story as to how THAT happened!)
But none of that is relevant to the point I was making, either. I was not addressing a matter of opinion about Mitt or his character. We are each entitled to our own opinions in this Great Land (at least for now!)
But why was that such an important point to me? It is an example of a much bigger point, that our society is inundated with false information and we who love liberty must also love truth. We shouldn’t accept bullet points, allegations, assertions about “facts”, just because they support our pre-existing opinion. I believe this is consistent with Trump’s criticism of “fake news.” In many cases, all one has to do check the record, research the facts a little, to find out that we are being manipulated. Because, the corrupt media IS in fact pushing lies, half-truths and mischaracterizations for the express purpose of making us angry and/or afraid. And it happens on both sides of the aisle.
An extreme example is Alex Jones’ publishing on InfoWars that the Sandy Hook School Shooting was a hoax and accusing the parents and mourners in the video clips of being paid professional mourners, etc. He did this to support his pro-gun rights positions. He has retracted the story, forced to do so by defamation lawsuits that have bankrupted his company. But even though he has admitted it was false, I still know so-called conservatives who believe it. My brother lived then, and still lives now, directly next to Sandy Hook School. His wife was one of the first people on the scene. Their kids went to a private school, so they weren’t there, but they knew virtually every one of the victims, or at least the victims’ parents, personally. It was no hoax and there was no justification in my mind for Jones’s actions, which led to vicious harassment of grieving families and has done tremendous damage to the pro-Second Amendment cause, especially along the East Coast.
Why do I “point the finger” at “the people”? Why do I worry about “the people” believing lies?
I will give you two quotes from history to explain my worry (and why good men who love liberty and our country being willing to accept falsehoods that happen to support their political positions scares me):
First, from John Adams’ Letter to the Massachusetts Militia, October 11, 1798:
“While our Country remains untainted with the Principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many Parts of the World: while she continues Sincere and incapable of insidious and impious Policy: We shall have the Strongest Reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned Us by Providence. But should the People of America once become capable of that deep simulation [lies, dishonesty, etc.] towards one another and towards foreign nations, which assumes the Language of Justice and moderation while it is practicing Iniquity and Extravagance; and displays in the most captivating manner the charming Pictures of Candor frankness & sincerity while it is rioting in rapine and Insolence: this Country will be the most miserable Habitation in the World. Because We have no Government armed with Power capable of contending with human Passions unbridled by morality and Religion. Avarice, Ambition, Revenge or Galantry, would break the strongest Cords of our Constitution as a Whale goes through a Net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Second, an excerpt from the conclusion to Joseph A. Story’s 1832 Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (which was considered the definitive work on Constitutional Law clear up until the 1940’s or so, when Constitutional Originalism went “out of style.”
“The fate of other republics, their rise, their progress, their decline, and their fall, are written but too legibly on the pages of history, if indeed they were not continually before us in the startling fragments of their ruins. They have perished; and perished by their own hands. Prosperity has enervated them, corruption has debased them, and a venal populace has consummated their destruction. Alternately the prey of military chieftains at home, and of ambitious invaders from abroad, they have been sometimes cheated out of their liberties by servile demagogues; sometimes betrayed into a surrender of them by false patriots; and sometimes they have willingly sold them for a price to the despot who has bidden highest for his victims. They have disregarded the warning voice of their best statesmen; and have persecuted, and driven from office their truest friends. They have listened to the fawning sycophant, and the base calumniator of the wise and the good. …They have surrendered to faction what belonged to the country. Patronage and party, the triumph of a leader, and the discontents of a day have outweighed all solid principles and institutions of government. Such are the melancholy lessons of the past history of republics down to our own.
…Let the American youth never forget that they possess a noble inheritance, bought by the toils, and sufferings, and blood of their ancestors; and capable, if wisely improved, and faithfully guarded, of transmitting to their latest posterity all the substantial blessings of life, the peaceful enjoyment of liberty, property, religion, and independence. The structure has been erected by architects of consummate skill and fidelity; its foundations are solid; its compartments are beautiful as well as useful; its arrangements are full of wisdom and order; and its defenses are impregnable from without. It has been reared for immortality, if the work of man may justly aspire to such a title. It may, nevertheless, perish in an hour by the folly, or corruption, or negligence of its only keepers, THE PEOPLE. Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people in order to betray them.”
“We, the People” formed this nation based on principles of truth and liberty, and we are the ones responsible if and when it falls.
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Just one comment. Hunter and big dog were involved in illegal business with Russia, Ukraine and China when Biden was VP. Explain to me why Trump should not have done what he did to get the criminal Biden’s caught and prosecuted for treason? I’m glad he did it and don’t see this an impeachable offense. Romney is a shmuck for voting in that.
“IF” Trump had proof, There are better ways to handle it than calling the President of Ukraine and threatening to withhold the military and monetary supplies the US Congress had agreed to send them.
That is what the US Attorney General is for, as well as the International Court or even as simple as having the US Ambassador of the Ukraine to talk with the man privately.
Robert,
I love reading your posts.
I have long believed the biggest problem in our country today is two fold:
- The media has stopped reporting the “news” and letting people make up their own minds about what is the “truth”. Instead they slant their stories to fit their narrative they want to push.
I listen to Fox News daytime anchors because for the most part they are fair. They often have people on the other side to explain their point of view that helps me understand why they feel that way.
I use to like Hannity, but have found him to be a political hack. For example, when GWB went into IRAQ because he believed IRAQ had WMD’s, Hannity for weeks touted that point, when there was no WND’s reportedly found, he switched his reasons for the invasion to “Saddam was evil”, when that started to wan, he finally ended up that the reason we went into IRAQ was to “Free the people”: Which was entirely false (which many people brought up to him and he called them liars) from what George W. Bush said on TV originally! That is when I stopped watching him and the other Talking heads (Well O’Reilley got canned, so I could not him anymore).
- Both parties have been taken over by the extreme branches of their parties. It is no longer what is good for the American people, but what is best for the first themselves and then for the party and finally way down the list the American People come into play.
I also know Orrin Hatch through his nephew. I am not doubting Fish’s story. I have found Chris to be a pretty honest guy.
But the man I met never would have said “I regret supporting Mitt” in any public setting.
Hatch was too much of a politician to make waves like that within his own party. But then again, have we not had those days where we say things out character because of some frustration? So I cane see where Fish’s story could be true as well.
I view Mitt the same way I viewed GWB, I did not always agree with his decisions, but I do believe they did what they did because they felt that was the right decision to make (Want an interesting read? read GWB book “Decision Points”). Unfortunately, I can not say that about the last three President’s.
I think another big problem in this country is actually “The American People” themselves.
When people start thinking and saying things in “Absolutes”, they tend to lose focus of the bigger picture.
Things are not as black and white as many from the far left or far right thinks it is. Life has a lot of gray in it. I learned that lesson being an inner city missionary in a Spanish ward here in SLC. Hearing some of the reasons why people came to this country (legally and illegally) is amazing and heartbreaking. The struggles they have endured, the trauma they have suffered is very sad.
Now I know there are some posters on this site that will take offense to what I posted and that is okay because they have a right to their opinion, but that does not mean that I am not right, either.
Again, you say there is a better way. Why is it better to have the AG? Forget the UN. If Biden was compromised, in which he was, there was no time to wait for the AG or the inept UN. Now, we have a compromised President Biden with China and Russia as well. And, we have war in the Ukraine creating global catastrophe.
Thanks, Floyd. I enjoy your posts, too. I think we have a lot in common. And I agree with your take on the Trump phone call to Zalenskyy. I spent most of my legal career advising public agencies and especially elected officials. I doubt seriously that any public agency lawyer would have ever advised an elected official to do what Trump did on that phone call. I suspect it was an “off the cuff” moment for the President, and his legal staff (and probably his political staff, too) then promptly pointed out his error, which is why he never went through with the threat and withheld the aid. Which is the difference I see between what Biden did and what Trump did. Biden actually withheld the aid to force the termination of the investigation. Trump didn’t follow through, and that is a rational basis on which to distinguish between the two. What Biden did was flat out extortion. What Trump did was, at best, threaten extortion. The argument over whether or not such a politically motivated threat by an elected official rises to level of impeachability probably should rest analytically on that distinction. Morally, it’s harder to distinguish for me.
Scott, in either case I would not dismiss anyone wrestling with and explaining a rational basis for his position on this issue in a setting as legally unclear, undefined and unadjudicated as impeachment as a “schmuck”. Whether I agree with him or not.
If actual hard evidence of a crime comes to the attention of an elected official, the correct legal advice is always to turn that evidence over to law enforcement having jurisdiction. It is never the correct action to threaten or manipulate people for your own personal or political benefit. The reasons for that are illustrated by this very case:
- depending on a lot of technical issues that most elected officials do not clearly think through, it can lead to civil liability and/or criminal charges.
- the official generally does not have legal authority to carry out the threat. In this case the aid had been authorized and terms for delivery specifically set by Congress. Trump had no legal basis to withhold the aid.
- even if the legal landmines are carefully avoided, it NEVER looks good to the public when it gets out, as it inevitably will.
- it generally doesn’t work anyway. It certainly didn’t work to Trump’s benefit in this case.
It worked out well for Biden. We now see he earned $5.2 million that was unaccounted for on his taxes. Why isn’t there any noise because I’m sure some of that was from Hunter’s Ukraine and China deal.
Those who were on the call with Trump said it was a perfectly fine call and no illegal words happened. Isn’t it interesting how Democrats can break laws and get away with it while Republicans are scrutinized and impeached for taking the high ground. Meanwhile, morals decline and the world is in a greater danger of nuclear war.
Wow, this thread really went crazy. There are some epistles in here for sure. It has been over a month and I have not really spent much time here so I won’t add anything.
The price of gas has doubled, we are well over $6.00 a gallon now. The price of food is spiraling upward and out of control. The housing market is out of control here as the super wealthy buy up properties and then rent them out at exorbitant rates. These are all things that affect the poor and marginal of our society in the worst way. Our current administration is intentional on making it happen. They are evil people. It isn’t going to last much longer but I’ve been saying that for a year now and it just seems to get worse without hitting a breaking point.
Good luck to you all in the coming months and years.
Your star shines brighter than most Aro.
As always I appreciate your insight and understanding of the world around us.