Same respect here.
There have been many direct relatives and descendants of general authorities that have opposed or left the church altogether. I think that is the wrong decision. Likewise, this group of 18 needs to be careful about their discussions, actions and decisions. It is too easy to fall into that trap.
Keep posting Ronald, you present a unique and fresh perspective and I appreciate it, even if I don’t agree with it much of the time.
Thank you Chris. The feeling is mutual.
I support Jim’s explanation and that it will all work out in the end. We may be surprised
with what we knew before the vail of forgetfulness was drawn. Hard hard issues. If everyone sticks together and helps and supports each other we will all be better off.
HaHaHa!!! You need to chill a bit. Utard is perfectly appropriate when the context is sports and a great rivalry. You need a funny bone 
Why is it shame? If in Priiesthood it’s made clear you would like the young men (and men sometimes) to be in white shirt and tie, then why would the person feel shame? Tell the person that there is someone with a white shirt available and don’t worry about it.
I liked your examples you shared. I’m sure there were a handful of teachers at BYU that were lesbians. But, they were faithful members and loved the Lord more than themselves and their desires. They stuck together and supported each other without losing their Temple Recommends. Wonderful teachers too!
Percentage have been tossed around but it’s probably more like 3 to 5% of the population that are gay. I think there is a person in our family (not immediate family) that is gay, married, Temple Recommend holder and Temple Worker. He’s faithful and is completely happy with his life and situation. He believes in the Doctrine and hereafter. Very much like Paul the Apostle who had that “thorn in the side” that tormented him. He over came it and wrote Romans Chapter 1.
The fact is, there are by far more heterosexuals with serious problems than homosexuals. Do we care about them as well?
Just kind of curious why your story about your friend and the Angels game was closed so quickly. It was a good story and I’m sure would have encouraged some responses
If you post without selecting a category (football or bball etc) then it locks after 1 hour. Jim can copy and post the story here if he wants to have responses.
Jim, That story would mirror the feelings I got when I came to BYU from Idaho. I would also say that Utah is very different today, Not so polarized. Salt Lake is 50% LDS now so members have to live their religion a little better these days. hahaha
Thanks for the info-good story and I hope it gets reposted
I tried to start a new thread with my story but… oh well, here it is again. I would like some comments if you have any. I liked Chris’ reply, especially the line about members having to live their religion a little better these days… hehe. Anyhow, here is the story copied and pasted.
So I want to tell a story that is both interesting and enlightening. It is not intended to offend anyone but it might. It is meant to be informative and helpful. Yesterday one of my close friends gave me a call and asked if I wanted to go with him to the Angels game down in Anaheim, about a 2 hour drive with no traffic and 4 with bad traffic. It took us 3 so whatever. It was a good chance to spend time with a good friend, something I rarely do but we had a great time and his Orioles team won 9-3.
Anyhow, at some point during our 12 hour trip (we left 6 hours before game time) he told me about an experience he had while travelling to Utah to visit his son, who recently got married. At some point during his trip he took the time to play a round of golf at Hobble Creek. I believe it was a weekday so there was no crowd and he headed out on his own. Near the end of his round he caught up to another guy who was playing by himself and subsequently invited him to finish the last 4 or 5 holes together. After they had finished, my friend learned that this man was a retired major league baseball player who was visiting to drop his daughter off at the MTC. His wife and daughter were shopping or something so he decided to play golf, which he does regularly. As they were about to finish the last hole, the man asked my friend if he wanted to play another nine, so they did. Apparently this man liked my friend well enough to want to spend more time talking with him.
During the next nine holes they talked about a lot of things. This gentleman said his family were members but he was not. He attended church with them and liked the teachings and the family unity aspect of it all. He also liked his smokeless tobacco (something he may have picked up during his baseball career) and that was an issue with his joining the church currently, but it became obvious to my friend that he was a good man. He told his younger son that if he served a mission he could baptize him when he got back. Then, he proceeded to share some things about the people and culture of Utah valley, as he had visited there many times over the course of the last decade. He said that people seemed to show interest and try to befriend him when they found out that he was a former major league player, but not until then. They wanted to associate with him AFTER they found this out, not before. It was disconcerting to him. He was reluctant to tell my friend about what he did for a living (he is still involved with baseball) because of this but recognized that this fact wasn’t important to my friend. As a result of this my buddy has a new friend that he regularly texts and communicates with. Did I forget to mention that this gentleman is african american? I believe that fact probably influenced his experiences as well.
One of these days, years or decades (hopefully) this will not be the case when he visits utah valley. I remember myself when I attended BYU back in the late 80’s, the dislike and bias for kids from California was palpable. I don’t feel it is an issue now but it was disconcerting to me in many ways… not only as a member of the church but as a human being too…
I know it isn’t like this with everyone but it is still way too common and effects others in a negative way… and coming from areas where there is a high population of members of the church, it is bothersome and frankly wrong. I know everyone can do better.
I hope that story is helpful to all of us.
So, Utard is an appropriate term :-0
I went to BYU in the late 70’s and I never felt like Utahans didn’t like me. Everyone likes the Jew from California. And, it took me all of 3 months to be baptized.
Anyways, enough comedy. Ministering has made me more aware of those I come in personal contact with (not in forums). And, there are no professional athletes around here. Well, I guess there are a couple but they are members
So, guess what topic came up in Priesthood today? White shirts and ties passing the Sacrament.
A brother related what he witnessed in a Ward in another state. Boys in T-shirts with improper messages on their shirts. And, they weren’t tucked in either. He asked the bishop about this and the bishop said they were working on it.
Another brother said the most important thing is to make sure they know why the Sacrament is important and that the ordinance is done correctly. And, that they are doing it for the right reason. And, this brother never wears a white shirt.
The instructor then played a video on Temple clothing shown on the Church website. Why do we perform ordinances all in white? So we don’t look different as all are equal in the Temple. And, the whole concept of purity of white.
Add to that, how are we baptized? In white. Why. For the same reasons. Why do we partake the Sacrament? To renew our baptismal and temple covenants. If we could all wear white to church to partake the Sacrament, I would be good with that and it would make sense. But, we don’t and I’m good with that because only the priesthood is performing the ordinance of the Sacrament. Since they who perform the ordinance should not dress different for popularity or any other unholy reason, wear white and a tie as we do in the Temple for the same reasons. Those boys the brother witnessed were trying to show which one is the coolest based on the patterns written on the shirts and who can be sloppiest. How we dress I think is part of the ordinance work as it is in the Temple.
I’m not the Prophet, Stake President or Bishop. But there is not reason for the inmates to run the prison. Have white shirts and ties available to put on the kids without white shirts. In SP, we had shirts and ties available. We had members buy kids white shirts and ties. We did the same for poor members as well. Teach respect towards God.
This is the exact reason I didn’t respond the first time.
I have no interest in talking about this so I would suggest dropping it.
Thanks for reminding everyone Mr. Hyde…
Three things here.
Yep, that sums it up pretty much. 
Oh, so you are the one who decides what can be debated. 
I simply answered your opinion that has no bases of fact or backing. Yet, you ignor the facts and that there is in fact a solid bases and reason to have the Sacrament administrated by those wearing white shirts and ties. Don’t be cheap. Invest in some white shirts and ties. 
Why would they feel sorry for me? Nope, never felt that happened. The only thing I heard about Californians was in the winter when it was obvious they didn’t know about snow tires. But, I also laughed at them as well. Oh, and the ones riding bikes too fast in the winters and would hit pocket of ice and go sliding on their butts. But, I never heard or saw anything like you seem to believe happened.
Once again, proving the Jekyll and Hyde theory. Thanks!
Time to end this discussion as well. No need to call it a debate because that isn’t what we are doing. Thanks for participating and demonstrating that my Jekyll and Hyde theory is correct. The vote is in and it is unanimous, your online persona is the worst… 
I like the story Jim, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, and I know it is pretty fair view on the mans interactions with members of the church. I have had similar experiences myself, being a non LDS person living in a majority based LDS community.
BUT… (you always know there the “But” coming). 
I have a problem with generalizations (Utah County reference), because it paint everyone as “the same” when it only might include a small section.
Let me give you a story that is true, because it happened to my grandson who happens not to be LDS because of his mother and her family.
See when my son was younger, he met this young lady and ended up being married and soon a son was born. She was a Jehovah Witness (sort of, long story). Her family is devout as all get out.
They moved around the first nine years of my grandson life, he lived back east for around 9 yrs near his mother parents and was raised to believe Mormons were bad people by the JW’s group his mother parents go too).
They finally move back to Utah, soon after my son went through a horrible divorce (won’t go into specifics) from his wife.
My grandson mother did everything in her power to make not only my son’s life miserable, but our entire family. Because of his mother hatred for my son and her dislike of the LDS church, my grandson was not allowed to have a normal childhood because his mother would not allow him to interact with anyone who was LDS including his grandparent (Me and my wife).
After many years, my son got remarried and moved to Utah County (American Fork) with his new wife and full custody of his son.
It was hard at first, but my grandson eventually started having what I would call a normal childhood. The members in the ward that my son lives i, showed a lot of love toward my grandson and even though he was not LDS, he was treated as “one of the boys”.
At first the members want to “convert” my grandson, but after my son and daughter in law explained the situation about my grandson mother issues. They backed off, but still included my grandson as part of whatever activities he wanted to participate in without pushing religion on him.
I as his grandfather will be eternally grateful that these members of the ward who reached out and made my grandson part of their families. Helped him have a normal childhood were he could go out and play, ride bikes and do teenage things as well as allow him to be exposed to the great things in Young Men’s program without being pushy with religion has changed my grandson life for the better. He is so much better a person because of these great people.
I believe that someday when my grandson is older, he will join the church in part because of these great Utah County members who truly were minsters to my son and his family.
that is why while I agree some Utah county Mormons can be a bit “Uppity”, there are a lot down there that are just trying to live the gospel the best they can and be a good influence on others.
Maybe that is the best they could do?
In my inner city mission, many of the boys pass the sacrament in Levi’s (always clean and not full of holes) because that is the best they can do.
Guess who saw this and said nothing about it to the Bishop? Elder Ballard of the 12, he in fact praised the boys for showing so much reverence during the sacrament. I guess reverence is more important than dress.