It is the dead time of the year

Football
181

I put some time and effort into what I thought was a well thought out post responding to Ronald U. and Fish.

I got nothing in reply to it.

I have always made an effort to be respectful and respond to others when they posted something that is important to them.

I’m not sure why I didn’t get any response to that post except that maybe it was because I was thoughtful and respectful.

It seems like the only time people respond to someone else is when they seem angry or upset, caustic or disrespectful. This would seem like the very opposite of why a person posts in a forum.

Oh well, I tried.

182

I responded. I respond to polite and nasty posts. I’m not a bigot :sunglasses:
But you didn’t respond to my question about getting together for the Utard game :slight_smile:

183

Sorry had to wake through all the other comments to find yours. :grinning:

I think what you said is a pretty fair assessment of the issue.
I also think that some members are predisposed to judge others without knowing all the facts. Because of that, people are hurt by insensitive comments made by people.
I believe that is why the church leader’s are pushing to separate what is doctrine and what is tradition.

184

Long overdue and a great point. Tradition and Doctrine often seem like paint running together but I do think there is an effort to clarify, simplify and to point out that tradition has muddied the waters for far too long.

185

What would be your examples of where you believe tradition has muddied doctrine?

186

Sometimes silence is the answer. You did answer respectfully and you do have empathy, something I respect in not just you but all people. I have put myself out there when it come to the church and our gay children because they are worth fighting for. They grow up loving the Lord and the Church and go on missions and then they hit that wall… Life just whacks them. Either be celibate or do the 95% divorce rate road of marrying the opposite sex. Good people don’t do that to other good people.…so with a big eye roll they leave.
In our home we treat our son as an equal is every respect and we celebrate his wedding and now growing family as we do our other children…and just wish the church could find common ground.

187

How is your gay son’s family growing?
I think you have said, there is doctrine and there are Traditions. Thou shalt not lie down with someone of the same sex as you do with the opposite sex is a Doctrine. It’s not a tradition. What then do you want the Church to do? What is common ground between doctrine and tradition?
By the way, I like “policy” better than “tradition” when it comes to these issues.

188

Example: in Utah bishops and stake president are not allowed to wear beards or mustaches. There is no doctrine nor is there a policy against it. Just a minor issue, but I find it interesting.

The ones I know the most about deals with the Temple, so I am not allowed to speak about those things outside of the Temple.

189

I don’t know whether beards and mustaches are tradition or policy. Jim might be able to answer that when he became a bishop. Did the Stake President request him to be clean shaven. There can be local policies. It’s a policy in our stake to have a white shirt to pass and bless the sacrament. It’s more than just a tradition. But, I know it’s not policy elsewhere.

190

I have friends in several states that are in leadership positions that have beards.

191

What kind of leadership positions? Bishops? Stake Presidents? If so, why? I don’t see any GAs with beards and mustaches. Temple Presidents? Perhaps a little rebellious behavior?

192

Not really true. If it is a policy then I am in error when the occasional young man passing the sacrament is not wearing a white shirt and I allow him to do so. I absolutely will not kick one of the young men from participating in the administration of the sacrament because he has a striped or colored shirt on. It is not a church policy, therefore it is not a policy in our ward, nor is it in the Stake.

1 Like
193

I don’t believe it is a wall but I do believe that Life whacks all of us. I agree that it is a huge challenge but something that can be struggled through, figured out and has the potential for a workable solution of some kind. At this time (and I imagine in the eternity’s) same sex relationships don’t fit into Heavenly Father’s plan of eternal happiness and progression for his children. With all the respect and empathy I can muster, this is just one thing that is an eternal truth and I believe it as well. Realistically speaking there are thousands of upstanding members of the church who end up spending their lives as single and celibate. They are of all sexual orientations as well. Most, if not all, would likely have desired to be married and have a family at some point. These challenges are HUGE… and difficult. I can’t imagine how hard it must be. The truth is we all have challenges in life and nobody knows exactly what those are like, except us, our Heavenly Father and his Son.

Having said that, I do believe that it will all be sorted out in the end and so we are only expected to try, to give our best effort, and to constantly strive to do His will. That is all He asks. The atonement is there to help us along the way so we should lovingly support and help each other in this journey.

I hope that helps.

194

As do I. I would say that Bishops are the MOST important call in the church just from the point of view that members live and die by what Bishops say. They are the front line and members connection to SLC. They sure chose a good one in you.

195

It doesn’t have to be a church wide policy. Stake Presidents as well as bishops can establish policies as long as doctrine is not changed. And, Stake Presidents as long as I’ve been here, 1980, have had a policy of white shirts. We have had priesthood holders not wearing white shirts pass sacrament. However, only when no one else with a white shirt is available or willing. It’s a good policy and a good look for a most sacred ordinance.

196

No no and no! It can be a suggestion, but never a policy. If that were true then a temple president could make it a policy that people with beards aren’t allowed in the temple. President Monson set the clear path in that regards. As long as you have a valid recommend you can enter the temple. As long as you are a worthy priesthood holder you can perform any priesthood ordinance IAW with your priesthood whether it be in your local meeting house or at a scout function high in the mountains. It is appropriate to wear a white shirt when passing the Sacrament, but I have passed sans the white shirt with plenty of other brethren with white shirts available

197

Jim, (Bishop),
I respect you. I appreciate all the good that you do.

I don’t believe that you really want me to give names (Use Context clues. “I personally know a group of about 18 in Provo, that feel this way also”.)

When you ask that I be more specific, the closest that I could possibly come is to say that I was at a gathering in Provo of about 25 people. And among those 25, there were approximately 18 of whom I speak.

One of those 18 was a grandson of one of our General Authorities. (Yes I know which GA, but best not said). It would be very unwise for any of us to say anymore, except, that Scott, and those like Scott, may be doing more harm with his rhetoric than good, and perhaps, for the good of all, he should read each and every post on this subject.

I truly believe that nobody on this site wants to say anything bad about Scott. They only want to bring about some positive change in the way he delivers his messages. He needs to stop attacking people. He needs to stop setting himself up as the superior one, over all of us.

198

fish “,Sometimes silence is the answer”.

I agree with all that you say.

I might add, (science/not doctrine)
If you believe the studies from virtually every industrialized nation in the world, that about 10% of all people have strong gay tendencies,

and doctrine, if you truly believe that God created all of us, and that all of us, Black, white, brown Asia, Arab, Native American and all other, if other, are indeed the children of God, why do we continue put so much emphases on that 10% of God’s creation, that may not be like the other 90%?

In my own family, I have 4 children, 29 grandchildren and approximately 29 great grandchildren and we are just beginning.

With that amount of approximate 62 in the family, if the studies, world wide, are correct, that means that approximately 6 are L or G or B. Not one of my family that may be LG or B would ever admit it. I suspect that I know whom 3 of them are. It would be devastating to them if anyone would ask. The other 3 are probably too young to know yet.

One of them is married and has a child and is the son of a bishop. He would never break the heart of the family, or want to offend the Church. He would never admit it.

Another one of the 3 that I would guess is LGB is from a different set of parents. He too would never admit it. He too is strong in the Church and would never want to offend the Church or his parents. He too is married and has a child. He is suicidal.
He hates his life. He sometimes wishes he was dead.

The 3rd one that I would guess to be LGB is one of my grand daughters. She is 40 and has never married and she never dates. She is one of the most wonderful people that anyone would ever want to know. I love her dearly. She would never ever admit to anyone that she may have the feeling of a L person. She loves the Church and her family and would never do anything to offend them.

So what I am saying is that we as parents and grandparents to not give our children the respect that they give to us and to the Church and too often, we destroy their lives without the acceptance of the cards that were delt to them in this life. It is very sad.

199

grasshopper:

You really don’t see anything wrong with your last post, do you. (Utard)
You insult both the University of Utah, which is at least 1/2 LDS, and more importantly, you insult the entire “Mentally Challenged” community. It seems that you insult someone in almost ever post you write.

200

This is not an accurate statement currently. This sort of “policy” is the reason why strange ideas creep into our religion, like caffeine, etc.

I will never bump a young man for wearing a colored shirt if he is there ready to pass the sacrament, even if another young man wearing a white shirt is available and not sitting there already. The distraction/shame are way worse than the focus on white shirts.

I might talk to him afterward if I felt it was appropriate but I might not even do that. Anyhow, Burton was right… not a policy unless it comes directly from the brethren.