Portlandia, what we found out

BYU has to trust itself. After watching the Gonzaga game, I thought that we were past the selfish play thing that plagued us earlier in the year. 10 assists for the entire game…come on, Man.

One of the things we will continue to suffer from is that when something is not working in game, we continue to hammer away rather than try a different strategy. This is frustrating to me after seeing that the 3s were not falling in the GU game, BYU made the in game changes with Fischer and KC driving to the hoop all game. This Portland game, KC could not get a call but it may be that Rose told him to continue driving and getting hacked…which leads me to point #3

…The rec league has crappy refs. always has, always will and BYU will lose another bottom feeder game or two, it always happens.

Chris… having said this, do you have any thoughts on why Gonzaga doesn’t seem to have any trouble with the bottom feeder teams in the wcc? I have my ideas as everyone is well aware of my belief that they are the darlings of the conference. In fact, I thought they were given ample opportunity vs. BYU to win and put that game away but their own poor play (Sabonis was worthless) is what ultimately doomed them. Had the officials given Gonzaga any more opportunities, there would have been an official complaint by Rose.

So how does Gonzaga get away with it, year after year, even when they are in a down year?

It is sickening to see BYU lose to a team like Portland.

WCC teams are tough to defend. (the bottom feeders). They consist of smaller D1 players that got passed over by the big schools but those small guards (wintering, Watson from SF) are soo fast. Our Mr. Basketball guys are slow and not as athletic. Gonzaga has problems with them as well (Santa Clara had them beat) but not to our extent because GU has some very fast guards.

These fast point guards just blow by our guards and once inside they either shoot it or pass to a open player because our guys have to sag to help out. That is why I keep asking for Chatman to be out there because he is fast. BYU has always had this problem since Rose has been the coach (except for the Abouo years)

Back to GU, Coach Few is a master of “In Game” change and he gets the athletes to not only battle the small WCC play but to also go against big East teams full of 7 footers. Had Karnoski been healthy or Sabonis not been in foul trouble all night, BYU would have lost by double digits.

We have talked about why GU gets away with playing big men in a small man league, the quick answer is that Few makes WCC teams have to defend the paint. Few runs so many plays into the middle, WCC teams have to keep their big lumbering guys on the court.

For BYU, we run something like 80% of our scoring from guard play. That plays exactly into WCC teams play. On the road when shots don’t fall like they do at home, WCC teams lose. to prove it, I will use SMC as an example. They were 14-1 and on the verge of being ranked when they went on the road and lost to Pacific, They have 6 more road games and I am guessing that they will have at least 3 losses before it is said and done.

The WCC Rec League officials are consistent, erh ah the WCCGonzaga/St. Mary’s League. Or is it the BYU coaching? I am not sure.

When one doesn’t understand the complexity of the game from the players and coaches to the strategies, preparation and much more, then you see them choose to attack the defenseless and easy targets, THE REFEREES.

This is what I posted before the Portland game and it was automatically closed by “the system”.


Is there really any team that should give BYU a problem? I don’t see it and that includes Portland this weekend, who just gave San Diego their first conference win and Pepperdine/LMU who have been mediocre (Pepp) and first conference win team (LMU) as well. I just don’t see how they can lose to either of those teams… except maybe Pepperdine gives them a fit because of last year. I don’t see it though.

The first trouble game I see is maybe USF away on the 11th or maybe St. Mary’s but that game is at home…

Is there any reason why BYU doesn’t watch game film and recognize that when they play together they are the best team in the conference? Gonzaga misses their big man terribly or they would likely be undefeated still. It’s just like I said at the beginning of the season and after every bad loss… there is really no excuse why this team can’t be really good. They are only limited by their selfish play…

So that is what I posted and it seems to be true. This time it was KC and I don’t know why he wasn’t given a foul on those drives to the basket but maybe he should have passed or not driven in the first place because he is out of control so often. Fischer seems to have figured it out and his consistent play has been a bright spot. The freshmen are hitting a wall (Seljaas, Chatman and Emery) so I don’t really know where the team goes from here. Not sure why the big caps showed up…

If your big outside shooters can’t hit the broad side of the barn or make layups and free throws then where will the scoring come from? That’s right, take the ball to the paint and score. KC is doing the right thing. He got the calls and made the baskets at GU. But he missed the shots and didn’t get the calls at PU. That happens. There was no one to pass the ball to. He’s not selfish. He’s trying to pick up those freshman’s slack.
We don’t play well at Pepperdine. That could be another Portland.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you again and I have comments from a poster on cougarboard who is saying the same things Chris, Tom, myself and others have been saying. Pay particular attention to the specific descriptions he gives for why BYU loses games like this…

“Though often lacking in physical talent, most WCC teams seem to be very fundamentally sound. They beat BYU more often than they should because BYU isn’t fundamentally sound. Our current team is very undisciplined, squanders possessions, takes poor shots, frequently forgets to block out, turns the ball over too much, plays selfishly, doesn’t play defense, and generally makes poor decisions on the court.”

Did you read for comprehension? Our current team is undisciplined, turns the ball over too much, PLAYS SELFISHLY, doesn’t play defense and generally makes poor decisions on the court. Obviously this guy is paying attention and sees what many of us see. You should spend some time actually watching a game… if you did you might see those things too.

Its called Seniors not trusting Freshmen. We have two amazing newbies, Saljaas and Emery. They were off in the Portland game and that spelled doom. They will grow up and be ready for Tourny play.

He’s probably another one who can see into a man’s heart as if he were God.
While I agree with most of what he writes, he too loses credibility when he starts in with the selfishness personal attacks.
Rose doesn’t ever talk about the players as being selfish. He too is critical about the basics and so have I.
I can tell you why the freshman missed their shots in the last two games. Basics. Don’t have their feet under them. Not squares to the basket and elbows flinging outwards. It’s that simple.
When your primary shooters can’t throw a stone in the Pacific, then your seniors are going to try harder to pick up the slack. That is responsibility, not selfishness.
Missing layups and short shots is a basic thing too. The primary culprit is lack of concentration, not selfishness.
Forcing shots is a matter of poor judgment, not selfishness. I will argue against the selfishness argument every time.

Just because people are afraid to use the word or don’t want to offend their players, as in Rose’s case, doesn’t mean that isn’t what is happening. And just because you choose to argue against it every time doesn’t mean it isn’t happening on occasion.

Having said that, it is absolutely a reality in the games they have lost this season and has contributed to their poor play over the course of this season.

The “basics” of taking 17 shots and making 4 are rooted in selfish shot attempts. When you aren’t scoring the ball you need to share it and create better looks for yourself and your teammates. Lack of concentration can lead to selfishness. It happens at every level, Kobe does it all the time. I see kids do it regularly… they need to be taught differently.

You are as stubborn as a mule and as a result, incapable of seeing or understanding something that is right in front of you… it’s sad really.

JH:You are as stubborn as a mule and as a result, incapable of seeing or understanding something that is right in front of you… it’s sad really.

SG: I’m stubborn? Look at you! In my case I’m right. Why would I change from right and choose wrong :wink:
I’ve stated why someone shoots 4-17 without being selfish.

  1. That’s about the number of shots he normally takes.
  2. The freshman stunk so no reason to pass to them.
  3. The coach tells him to keep shooting.
  4. His teammates tell him to keep shooting.

That’s so much easier and better than gossiping about someone with no proof.


you didn’t see the game.

I am basing my comments on what Tom Larimer said he saw at the game combined with what I have seen in other bad BYU losses.

You are basing your comments on nothing. You didn’t see the game and you aren’t taking into consideration anything those who did see it, are saying. In fact 3 of your 4 points are false conjecture. Fact is that KC takes about 12 shots a game, the “freshmen” typically don’t get enough minutes anyway and there is no way you can know if the coach and players tell him to keep shooting. Likewise there is a difference between telling somebody to keep shooting and telling them to keep driving and forcing up junk on a spin move when you are double or triple teamed. I’ve seen that over and over and over all season long.

When I have missed games in the past and you have watched them, I read what you write and then try to analyze it, keeping in mind that your observations are typically superficial and stat based.

That is how I formulate my opinion on what happened. I actually do consider what you write about what you saw.

I am getting to where I trust your judgement and analysis less each time. Our opinions, about what is plaguing this team and keeping them from winning games where they are obviously the better team, are getting farther and farther apart. I can look at the stats and see that the players “need to make more baskets” or “need to hit free throws”. I want to read something more when I miss a game, something that tells me more than the stats do. Your superficial arguing is not the answer… :weary:

No, those people on Spots Nation that were at the game and saw it disagree with you conspiracy theorists. I simple reject attempts to label someone selfish based on doing his job and trying to win when other players aren’t playing up to their abilities. If you guys want to judge another go ahead. But I just refuse to do that.

KC would have had his “average” 11-12 shots had he not been singled out by the officials, because he drew contact in the act of shooting at least 6 times, zero of which were called, thus his 17 shots should have been 10-11 official attempts. I sat right behind the basket and that game was a brawl in the paint from the first possession. The officials decided IN ADVANCE that contact on KC in the paint was NOT a foul, but contact on anyone else would be called like always–and except for KC, the officiating was fair. Our 3 bigs attempted about 15 shots in the paint and shot 15 FTs. KC also shot about 15 shots in the paint, drew FAR MORE contact than did Davis, Austin and Kaufusi, yet drew ZERO shooting fouls. The only rational conclusion is that the officials decided to apply one set of rules to KC and another to everyone else. The blown travel call at the end was pure chicken$%^$ officiating by 3 guys who all saw the same thing we saw, but the KC thing is more problematic because it was systematic.

Interesting that you are concurring with both Scott (KC averages about 12 shots a game) and myself (there is biased officiating, in some form, against BYU regularly).

Hard to understand how a player who drives to the basket as often as KC does went to the line only twice, not even close to any of the other starters. Knowing that KC shoots more free throws than any other player on the team makes it even more problematic. It is really hard to believe that he only took 2 free throws on 17 shot attempts, when we all know that going to the basket is something he does regularly.

Is there some selfishness involved? I can’t say for sure because I didn’t see the game. There has been in the past as he worked to secure another triple double but that isn’t indicative of what happened in this game necessarily. Like I said before, I trust your judgement.

If I recall, his two FT attempts were on a 1 and 1 foul away from the basket in the first half and he drew ZERO shooting fouls, even though he was hit HARD a lot of times, sometimes by more than one defender. I was frustrated by his continuing to drive the ball to the rim when it was obvious the refs had agreed not to give him any shooting fouls. Portland’s coach was screaming at his team during a TO to hit KC every time he got in the paint, because he too saw what we saw. It was like a tragic comedy. My only point on the shot attempts was that 6 of his 17 would not have been counted had the fouls been called and would have reduced his official attempts to 11 or 12, which is what SG had said it is (I haven’t looked it up). The 3 refs knew exactly what they were doing vis-a-vis KC.

Scott actually surmised that his 17 shot attempts are what he typically takes during a game. I disagreed, looked it up and found that he averages about 12 a game. But in Scott’s defense, he also shoots about 6 free throws a game, well ahead of the next highest player on the team.

Can you imagine the outrage from Gonzaga fans if the officials had done the same thing to Wiltjer? The GU star was basically allowed to do whatever he wanted in the game vs. BYU.

That’s your opinion. In the St. Mary’s game, he was getting contact in the paint and fans were saying the same things you are. But, with fair minded non-conspiracy eyes, he was forcing himself into players who were straight up and in position. There was another game we lost that was the same thing. Thing is contact or not he should have made the shots anyways. Players we play against make the shots anyways.

I know you think there is some conspiracy but to say that against one player is silly. Poor loser as we no -conspiracy people would say. We didn’t play good and they did. We still could have won with two more shots made.