St Mary's Takeaways

  1. Mika? Wow. I hope all you guys are right and he stays another season.
  2. We only had 3 turnovers–THREE!!!–great job taking care of the ball.
  3. I have always been a huge supporter of Coach Rose, but I am beside myself at how he thinks we can play zone defense. Our zone was a complete debacle. We got killed on the boards and even the ESPN announcers must have commented 20 times about SMC getting wide open looks almost every possession. This loss falls at Coach Rose’s doorstep. Period.
  4. I had predicted our bench would kill us. We were tied the first 10 minutes, then the moment we subbed SMC went on a 10-0 run. Game over right there.
  5. Please tell me that Bryant is just rusty and that he cannot really be as selfish as he looks.
  6. Good refs. Few fouls. They let the players decide the game.
  7. Emery needs more looks. He could have beaten his guy off the dribble every time but for some reason hardly ever had the ball.
  8. We also only had 9 assists to SMC 21 assists. That is attributable to coaching. SMC is just too good at passing and shooting to try to play zone against them. We were in scramble mode the whole time. Such an embarrassment to put us in zone and make us look like a bunch of fools on defense on national TV. Lucky nobody east of SLC was watching.
  9. The better team won.
  10. BYU pregame talk: “Hey, St Mary’s is totally unselfish, totally disciplined, will always make the extra pass, and they all shoot 35+% from deep. Let’s play zone so that the ESPN guys can make fun of us all night on national TV.”
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I really don’t think going zone made a difference. When Mika wasn’t in, they stretched the lead out. They beat us on man defense as well.
I really hope you aren’t going to be in the crowd of chasing Bryant away. After not playing for 2 months on a bad knee, he gets in and has some open shots and like Emery, misses them. Yet, he’s 40% from 3’s. Come on.
When you look at the game and the stats, only 3 turnovers even with too much hero ball in the second half, where did we lose. How about this:

  1. At halftime, we had shot several more free throws than SM. Their coach was giving the refs the riot act going off the court at halftime. I think we only got to the free throws once in the second half while SM was in Bonus+. There is about 6 or 7 points right there in the second half.
  2. We took some questionable 3’s in the second half. But, we missed some wide open uncontested layups and 6 footers in the lane. Bryant’s misses in the first half were rust. Second half two 3’s and 40% from 3 ball land. The free throw disparity and the easy misses (SM didn’t miss any of their layups and easy shots) in my opinion lost the game.
  3. Man or zone, didn’t matter against that experienced team. However, I’d rather they play a 2-3 matchup zone than the 1-3-1. And don’t worry so much about helping inside. Stay on the 3 point shooters.
  4. SM and GU are teams defense will be difficult to stop them. We have to make every layup and every short open shot. Don’t turn the ball over and move the ball around to get more open looks and lanes to drive.

I didn’t see the second half but my takeaway from the first half portion I did see is that Rose’s 1-3-1 zone is absolutely horrible, particularly against a team like this with patience and good shooters to spare. Maybe our guys are just too slow but it leaves huge gaps off either side of the top of the key for shooting and/or penetration and the rotations out of it leave the off side wing way to open way to many times.

I happened to watch a few games back from the Danny Ainge days where we played a 2-3 or possibly a 2-1-2 and the difference in covering the floor was tremendous. Of course, that team might have just been much better at playing D, but all in all, Rose’s zone D too me is completely ineffective way too much of the time.

All in all, we have to face the fact that from an execution standpoint, teams like St. Mary and GU are way, way ahead of us and like it was said before, that has a ton to do with coaching. The team play of SM last night was outstanding, with great patience, passing, spacing and court awareness by every guy on the court. We have as much or more individual talent, but our play as a team is not at all on this type of level. With 3 turn overs only you would think we would be in it, but neither our offense nor are defense click well as a team. And honestly, I don’t believe they ever have since Rose has been the coach. We get great individual efforts, but very rarely do we look like a great team.

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The better team won…
Like BYU they have a bunch of players that have played together for years…only BYU has 3, and SMC has 7.
Like BYU they have a prior coach on the bench who’s had years of developing the players and learning their strengths, weaknesses, and game time decision patterns.

That we hoped BYU would play better than they usually do and that they didn’t: disappointing.
That SMC played as well as they usually do: expected.

game played out pretty much as expected.
That BYU got CK and Eli some playing time against one of the best teams in the nation was good. That the team didn’t deer in the headlight was good too.
That the team is improving is good. That it is not at the rate expected or desired is not good. But if Mika sticks around…looking increasingly less likely…then the improvement should continue.

To ask for the team to transmogrify is to simply expect the impossible.
They are improving…Rose is good at getting his teams to improve and they are.
Will they be good enough by the end of the season to get lucky enough to make this a special season? At this point doubtful. Will they continue to improve? Usually. Rose’s teams and players do: usually.

I’m a big Rose fan. I took a softball class from him at Dixie years ago. But I think he is a good coach, not a great coach. His teams always perform the same. They never win the games they shouldn’t and lose the occasional game they should win. This was the case at Dixie when I was there. I hope the coaching gets better somehow.

Sounds like much of the commentary of a Hall of Fame Coach Rose’s teams play a lot like: Guy Lewis…

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If you have not watched the ESPN 30 for 30 “Phi Slama Jama,” I think you will love it. Dave Rose is interviewed as part of the documentary. It is a great walk down memory lane of some good times in college hoops.

It was as if Rose has reconciled to the fact that we would lose to SMC and that he would get Bryant as many minutes as he could play???

From my coaching chair, which is soft and comfy, Rose lost when he stubbornly stuck to a 1-3-1 Zone, Naar, Rahon and Hermanson are still chuckling about, GEEEZZZZZ, Haws was miles from guarding anyone at the top, he might as well gone over and smacked one of the cheerleaders just to get a least one foul called

The 1-3-1. on a Bennett team, loaded with guards who shoot over 40% is the most retarded thing I think I have ever seen done. I mean if you were dumb enough to try a zone on these slow white guys, why wouldn’t it be a standard 2-3. I am still in disbelief at what I watched last night.

Stay on man coverage and learn now to fight through pics and ROTATE when you get beat. Rose was dumb enough to try a 4 guard and Childs rotation for a while and SMC just lobbed oops to Landale and Pineou. Just a complete lack of Coaching to me.

Bennett was nervous, agitated from the get go and Rose just sits there…Look, yeah you were going to get beat, I get that but why not stop the game and really coach your guys up on how to deal with the pics and why would you allow to many wasted hero ball possessions to go on without reigning in your guys and get back to team ball. You use these losing games as teaching moments rather then just sit there

Agreed. Like Rose, but never have been a fan of his 3 point line defense.

Sorry Tom, but I have to respond. This isn’t specific to these comments but to all the comments posted in this thread. They are actually quite entertaining and made me smile several times as I read them.

We keep hearing this over and over. It is like BYU fans WANT him to leave so they can say “look, a BYU guy is in the nba and that validates us as a legitimate program”. All I can ask is why?

Yeah, if bad shots counted as turnovers BYU would have had 23…

Stop criticizing Rose, he is a better coach than you are Tom. Just ask Harold. :smile:

Our bench? what bench? You mean the one that never developed or got any playing time? Is that the one? Is it the one that scored 16 points? How about St. Mary’s “bench”? they scored a grand total of 7 points. They did nothing.

He hasn’t played in like 6 or 7 weeks. How do you think Emery or Haws would have handled that? Too funny…

Yeah, they were okay. The player control foul against Bryant was a brutal call as BYU was gaining some momentum. That is a David Hall specialty, killing BYU momentum. Did anyone else notice how the officials were always getting after BYU players and dressing them down? I’m glad St. Mary’s won big, because it absolved officials of any responsibility. 12 total fouls on St. Mary’s?

Yeah, he needs to drive more and get his shot blocked or run down at 100 miles an hour and pull up for a 25 ft. 3 pointer, especially right after he makes a shot because he is hot then.

No, it is attributable to looking to shoot first and pass second as well as hero ball… something BYU always seems to fall back on when things get tough. The zone defense and number of assists are kind of a separate thing but there is some connection I guess.

Actually, the team that played better won. That isn’t necessarily the same, but we have seen this before. It is a BYU trademark… to have more talent and still lose games.

That is all I will say and it is not directed at you specifically Tom. Your post just made it easier to reply to everyone. I am hoping thawk has something to post, I love his insight and non emotional analysis.

As I’ve said, where we lost it was missing 8 or 9 short non-contested shots and layups. Also, we only shot 2 free throws in the second half. They made 8 more than we did. So, did they beat us or did we beat ourselves not making those shots.
Child’s hook shot has been short for 2 games now. In a big game like SM, his inexperience showed. As did Haws. As did others. Yes I agree we should scrap the 1-3-1 and go with the 2-3 and 2-1-2. Mix it up.

reader’s digest version - BYU is never as good as they or their fans think they are.

Well, I enjoyed all of the comments. Here is my take:

When I saw Bryant enter the game I new we wouldn’t win. We were behind by 2 and when he left we were behind by 11. My thought didn’t have anything to do with whether or not Bryant is good enough to be a star player for BYU now or down the road. It is all about chemistry on offense and defense. I would have held him out until the Pacific game tonight (watching as I type). A quick look at the points scored by the guard line and everyone will see what I mean. Not a single guard above 10 pts except Bryant with 11. It was a offensive disaster on the guard line but not quite as big of a disaster as it was defensively for our guards. Next … Mika, I am not in the Mika to the NBA camp for next year. He won’t be drafted until he learns to pass out of the post. He has to realize when he has no option for a clean shot that the ball has to go back out to the guards. He will learn. He should have at least 4 assists a game solely on passes back out for 3 pt shots. I am not sold on the offense “always runs through the post” if Mika can’t learn to find the open man when his shot selection is narrowed by multiple defenders. Bryant forced shots that hurt our momentum which is to be expected in his first game back. Childs had an off game because of the height of StM bothered him. They are a really tall team.

Lastly, the assist issue is haunting BYU. We have to be a less selfish team on offense. StM beat us because of three issues. Lack of assists (primarily from the bigs), lack of continuity on the BYU guard line and most importantly the zone defense is a disaster. From my perspective I would allow the StM post, Landale, to score 40 pts before I would go to a zone and even then I wouldn’t. BYU can beat them with Landale scoring 45 if we limit the 3 pt shooters from having completely open looks … which they had all night. Landale having 6 assists was the game breaker for us. Coach Rose will have to figure out a way to get Bryant playing within the team shell without the very long learning curve that Haws and Emery took to figure it out. I think he can do it. I have said all along that BYU will not get an invite to the NCAA tournament unless they grab the WCC tourney championship. So, while it is not fun to see them lose, it will take a few loses to get a rotation that gets all five guards enough minutes (comfort) to get them in a playing rhythm together. I think it may be different combos in at the end of games all year long, depending on who is on that night. Bryant is capable of 25 in a game … same with Haws, Emery and Beo. LJ can hit 15 with lots of assists. But, the coaches will have to figure it out. Inside out is great as long as the ball comes back out in the correct position … .which it didn’t against StM and hasn’t in a number of games this year … especially against the better teams we have played.

Dastrup is an unusual player…I am in favor of trying to win games, but not at the expense of giving time to find impact players and to get comfortable and build the team for the crucial peaking time of the WCC tourney. Dastrup, Leifson, Shaw, Bryant, Aytes, Corbin and Beo all need to develop their skills because as they go … so go the cougars at crunch time. Haws, Emery, Mika, LJ Rose and Childs are not good enough … even at full capacity (and more than 30 min a game) to beat good teams. There has to be help from the other players … and they have to be confident enough to give that help.

When you said you would have held him out until the Pacific game after Bryant looked like all league I quit reading.

You are saying that Bryant looked all league at StMarys? Now everyone will quit reading!

You responded like a good little Democrat of today. No sir. But he never would have looked this good against Pacific had he not played in SM. You just don’t simply wait as a coach. Bryant’s talent has to be on the floor if at all possible against other talent.
After the lousy start against SM, Bryant had a very good game. 2-5 with 3’s and that is 40%. Double digits too.

Yep, yep and yep. Rose has to turn over the defensive calls to Lewis and play man at all times. The WCC is all about beating SMC and the Gazs. You will never beat any of the two if you let guards have wide open looks at 3s. Both of their offenses are predicated on the drive and dish out to 3land.

Here is what I would do on a Landale or Karnowski…You have to play Dastrup or Kaufusi and just lean on those guys, wear them down and frustrate them. SMC will not even start their offense until 30 seconds have run off the clock. That’s 30 seconds of leaning on the big guys. Instead we just let them rest, huge mistake. When you have Childs or Mika in, we can’t afford to have them tire by going at their bigs on D so start using the 270 plus weight and bother the heck out of their bigs.

As for Bry, we said the same thing. Why SMC when we really had a chance? Dead horse now so we look to the future. As for Pacific…Rose let them just run and do whatever they wanted and we beat them by 30. Big deal and big mistake. I saw plenty of hero ball out there tonight and little work on what makes BYU beatable so yeah, Rose will have his 20 plus wins but he will always get beat by good teams that play sound defense.

I am glad you brought up the Ainge teams. They played a 1-3-1 zone and Danny played the base line, he was quick enough to make the plays. The baseline is the Key position in that Defense. You have to have the right person playing the postiion,

Nonsense. Are you saying the two opponents are the same? Bryant had a much better game against Pacific because the competition was not as good, the pressure was not as great and his effort in the St. Mary’s game didn’t affect the outcome in a positive way.

Yeah, pretty much what I was thinking. This is par for the course when it comes to the grasshopper.