Rose is the best coach we’ve had since when? Or compared to what era. In my days at BYU in the 1960’s to 1971 we won an NIT in 1966 and won several WAC Championships, all under Stan Watts. He also coached BYU to the NIT Championship in 1951. How many conference championships has Rose won? How many NIT’s? Sorry, it’s been all down hill since we had the Jimmer.
You’re not the first to mention Stan, so I checked.
Stan coached byu for 23 seasons and won 371-254 (.594)
Rose - 13 seasons - 325-118 (.734)
Stan has 6 losing season to 17 winning seasons (Worst Record - 8-18)
Rose - All winning seasons (worst record 22-12 or 20-9)
Stan won the conference 8 times out of 23 lowest finish - 7th (out of 8) (median 2nd)
Rose - 4 out of 13 lowest - 3rd. (Median 2nd)
Stan competed in the postseason 10 out of 23 years. (7-NCAA/4-NIT)
Rose 12/12 (this year is unknown) (8-NCAA/4-NIT)
Stan’s post season in context - The NIT used to mean something and that 1951 win is good and a win in 66 less so. Then again, there were only 12 teams in the whole tourney and we beat Saint lous, seton hall and Dayton. He lost in the first round NCAA 3 times, second round 3 times, sweet sixteen once (there were only 23 teams in the tourney) Elite 8 once (there were only 16 teams and it was the same year we won the NIT) We won the NIT twice and lost in the first round twice.
Rose’s - 6 first round exits, 1 32, 1 sweet 16 (NIT - 2 first rounds, 2 NIT Semi finals)
Stan coached in the mounain states conference (?) and the WAC
Rose - MWC and WCC
Career in context - Stan managed to win an NIT when it meant something, then again, it was a dinky tourney in comparison to the 68 team field now. Also, and I can not highlight this enough, that was back in the day when Blacks were segregated out of the leagues, which means BYU was at a much smaller athletic disadvantage because we could recruit at higher level relative to other teams versus now. Plus the competition was significantly smaller and less talented. For instance, Stan had 6 All americans in 23 years to Rose’s one (jimmer). A lot of that had to do with a smaller, and significantly white, talent pool. Although Rose did have a NPOY in Jimmer and he did have 5 conference POY and stan only had one.
In other words, I’ll take Rose over Stan any day.
I am okay with the status quo per say Jim, mostly because I have decommissioned the importance of BYU sports in my life.
When I lose perspective on what is really important in life, and sports is more important than spending time with my grand kids… it is time for a change.
I do not live and die by what Tom Holmoe does with the coaching, players, schedules, etc… Getting upset because BYU lost to LMU is NOT that important to me… Not being able to be with my newest grandson (Liam Floyd Esplin, Born two weeks ago) because I have had the dreaded flu IS IMPORTANT to me.
So I guess it is a matter of perspective for me.
The won loss percentage advantage Rose has is meaningless because Watt’s always played a much tougher schedule. The demographics of blacks in the game vs. whites in my opinion is also not real relevant. What is meaningful is the impact your teams have based on the era they played in. The NIT win in 51 was very meaningful in the context of the time. The one in 66 was prestigious but not as much as the one in 51. Today the winning the NIT is nice but nobody will remember it a year after it happens except the players who played in it and their fans. I posted at length on this in another discussion.
How could it not be relevant? Everyone else’s player demographic drastically improved but because of the demographics of the LDS church and who we can recruit ours did not. In other words, our players matched up better back then than they do now, which is and advantage Stand had that Rose does not. Rose is coaching a severe underdog from the get go because of the recruiting restrictions.
I spot checked a few seasons and was not impressed. Do you have any data to show the relative level of competition? I don’t see it but if you can show me numbers that would be interesting.
- I’m sad to say that I concede we have become a middle of the pack team in one of the worst leagues in D1. We struggle to beat the bad teams, and fight hard but lack the firepower to beat good teams.
- WCC officials want badly to elevate their status, and one way to do that is to show everyone who is boss. Calling touch fouls with demonstrative gestures says, “That was a foul, and you all think it wasn’t, but I know more than you.” They are hoping their boss sees it and says, “Now, look at that guy–he knows more than the players, fans, coaches and announcers. He can REALLY control a game.” The result is a bush league besieged by touch fouls and a league-wide inability to play physical defense. How many times did USD players go up for shots and jump SIDEWAYS to create contact with a close-out defender? 3? 5? It was a bunch. How many times did players FROM BOTH TEAMS flop to the ground after minor contact, or, worse, while dribbling or going over a screen, throw their head and upper body backwards like they had just been punched in the throat when the actual contact was just a no-call brush or no contact at all? I’ll bet that alone drew 10 fouls in that game. The officials in this league are an embarrassment. It will never change because this is a bush league and the officials don’t want to be working WCC games anymore than I want my team to be playing WCC games.
- Too many top LDS players are not even considering BYU, because they don’t want to play in high school gyms. Tom Holmoe better understand this soon, because our hoops program, 20k seat arena, and proud history, is headed towards being a dumpster fire.
- Our average attendance the past few years is about 14,500. Sure this is top 15 nationally, but it’s the worst attendance BYU has had in 45 years. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attendanceYBYtop25.pdf. . A few years ago BYU fans sold out the WCC high school gyms for away games, but the novelty has worn off and now those games are played to under 2000 people. I will be at the game at UofP this Thursday, and I bet half the tiny gym is empty. BYU fans have never been so apathetic, and recruits see and FEEL that.
For me the whole key to to get out of this league, and we will get better players, just like we did when we played in the WAC and the MWC. As I’ve said before, Jimmer came to BYU to light up The Pit and SDSU, not a bunch of glorified high school teams. Imagine how much we could use a guy like Noah Hartsock now. Would we even get him now? I doubt it.
I think you may be basing your evaluation of a lot of teams on Watts’ schedules on the fact they were not P5 teams. The independent teams BYU played a lot in their non-conference schedules may not look all that good based on what they are doing today but back in the 50s’, 60s’ & early 70s’ a lot of teams you saw on the schedules were actually very good but not too relevant today. You can’t compare schools like St. Joseph, Seattle, LaSalle, Loyola, Providence, St. Johns, DePaul, Oklahoma City based on what they are now when they all regularly made post season tournaments when it was actually an accomplishment to make a tournament, either the NIT or NCAA. BYU never played teams like Mississippi Valley State, Texas Southern etc., years back. During many of Watts’ years Utah State was actually a very good team and BYU played them twice a year.
Unless you actually followed college basketball during the days of Stan Watts you really wouldn’t know who was good and who wasn’t.
I was spot checking based on opponent records. There aren’t many data sets available…
You make a lot of interesting arguments. The enormous problem with the mwc, or another, is the TV and other financial considerations. Watching BYU was an enormous pain and now it’s the most accessible school to watch. Your arguments are strong but I would refuse to go back without a fix for the absurd TV package.
Congratulations and that is very cool that he was named after Grandpa. 
Be careful or you are going to lose sight of the need for Rose to be held accountable for the hero ball coaching style that he just can’t seem to move away from. Also, remember that the number of players on a team hasn’t changed, but the number of lds kids has increased immensely in the last 50 years. There are a lot more available players and the racial thing is less of an issue than it was back then.
I am just trying to stay focused on why we are having these discussions in the first place. The bottom line is that, in general, we are not happy with the team, the mediocre play and inconsistency are very frustrating and the program overall is in a down slide right now.
Black players came into play many years before you stated. Ever hear about Bill Russell at USF? How about Texas Western (UTEP) who won the NCAA in I believe it was 1966 with an all-black team. When I was at BYU all teams in the WAC except BYU had black players that is Utah, Wyoming, New Mexico, Arizona State, and Arizona (ca 1964 through 1971). The NCAA in 1965 had 16 teams, all conference winners only. The NIT had somewhere between 8 and 12 teams until I am not sure, but at least in the 1950’s and 1960’s. Yes, things were smaller then, but yes, BYU was more competitive until the demonstrations against BYU about blacks and the Priesthood came about around 1967 or 1968.Most teams didn’t compete in the NCAA or the NIT during those years. I admit that you can’t compare errors. Back then most team played from about 20 to 25 games and there were no conference playoffs to get into the NCAA or the NIT. I do believe that the ACC started the first conference playoffs, but I don’t know exactly when. It was a unique thing in those days.So Rose’s teams played
8 to 12 more games a year compared to teams in the 1960’s.
Aro: Great post. I am with you, but I guess some people can’t compare eras. But BYU is definitely in a bush league in the WCC St. Zaga era. We are a mediocre team in a rec league in the WCC. Seven of the teams of the WCC could not compete with the BYU, Utah, New Mexico, and later UTEP teams od the old WAC. Actually Arizona and ASU were lesser powers in the old WAC. ASU was the football power pre-Lavel Edwards except that Utah won the WAC in 1964 and BYU won the WAC in football in 1965.
JH: Today I read the Deseret News article about the lack og foreign recruiting by BYU in the Rose era vs. other teams in the WCC, i.e. all teams except BYU and Pacific in the past five or six years. BYU had the guy from
Brazil and Kresemer Chosich in the 1970’s and a few others. The article mentioned that Rose hardly recruits out of Utah Co and Utah; i.e. the “three” in Utah Co. I admit that we have picked up more black players, our “big three” now.But winning 20 to 25 games now and finishing third almost every year in the WCC is not much fun. Do we have lesser players? I am not sure. Is our coaching staff up to the WCC competition. I think we played as competitive in the old WAC and the MWC than we have done in our time in the WCC. Why? Is it the lack of foreign players or what else? Is it the coaching?
Virtually all national commentators agree that it is a three-team league. BYU being always third.
Third in a ten team league is a bit of an exaggeration to describe as middle of the pack.
No place can I find a run down of the D1 conferences that do not have the WCC being just inside or outside the top 10 conferences.Given that there are 32 conferences to descrbe the WCC as one of the worst is a bit of an exaggeration
There are no WCC only officials. Most of BYU’s games are reffed by the same officials that work the PAC12. A smaller portion by officials who work the MWC, Big Sky or other western conferences.
BYU regularly has refs who have worked post season tournaments including the NCAA…
Yeah to be fair we’re arguing minutia and a matter of opinion. I suppose I could drag out more data and meticulously tease out conclusions but at the end of the day, it’s a relatively silly argument. I admit it’s something of a distraction from the point. Rose is our coach now. I personally think he’s both very good for the challenges he’s overcome as a coach to get BYU to perform where it has and at the same we’re making relatively simple or fundamental errors limiting our consistency.
If we correct those then I’m confident we can control the conference or at least compete at the top with two very good teams in St zag.
Unfortunately I do not share the same optimism. Rose has brought in a defensive coach and we are watching a big shift but our offense has suffered greatly. Mr basketball’s do not do well in a slow down methodic offense apparently.
Rose is changing his coaching because he has seen that he can’t win games in the Dance with high octane O but zero D, now the pendulum has swung 180 and we have no offense. I do think that Schroyer, if he stays, will help recruit the athletes needed to run his type of offense. Time will tell
But it will not change the two things that Rose really suffers at…1- Rose does not develop his bench, I can’t remember when he did. 2- Rose needs athletes to compete with and these stick men just can’t compete with strong athletes.
First grandson (out of three) that has my name… Bad part is that I came down with the Flu the day he was born and have not been able to be with him (don’t want to take any chances of getting him ill).
You should go to Desnews.com and read Doug Robinson column about BYU basketball the article is named “Why does BYU not tap into this one, Seemingly obvious, recruiting tool?”. it backs up a lot of what you have been saying…
A few years ago I would have said we were a “top tier” team in the WCC, but in the last couple years we have definitely become a “middle of the pack” team. We go 0-4 vs the only two good teams, lose (sometimes badly) to bottom dwellers full of guys who barely got D1 offers, and need miracle comebacks to beat other lousy teams. We are in a “clump” of 5 teams in the middle of the pack, all within 2 games of each other, with a combined record of 79-64. This is the worst BYU team I have seen in many years, but the scary thing is that the decline is gradual and too many people seem ok with it. It was fun for me to watch my team battle good teams in hostile arenas full of 10-12k screaming fans. Not so fun to watch my team struggle to compete with lousy teams in gyms so empty you can hear the shoes on the court and the ball bouncing.
Take out Gonzaga and this league is one of the worst in D1. UTA RAN US OUT OF THE GYM; they completely outclassed us. We had zero chance in that game and they toyed with us athletically and schematically. UTA is 7-7 in the Sun Belt. The WCC teams would get creamed in any other league. Ok, maybe the Ivy league is worse…maybe…