What is happening at BYU?

Off-Topic
1

So I graduated in 1989 and Elder Holland was the president of the University. It felt good to be there even though I had some negative experiences with certain “rules” on campus, being accused (and grilled by campus police, etc.) of a crime I didn’t commit and generally feeling at times like the place was a little too rigid on some things and not enough on others. It led to a feeling of some hypocrisy, favoritism and other not so great things but overall I loved my time there and the good outweighed the bad in my opinion.

Fast forward to 2019 and the coming out party at graduation commencement. I am not homophobic, but I do know that making any comments about the appropriateness of doing so at a BYU graduation is questioned and drowned out by much louder voices. What was the purpose of doing so? It didn’t seem relevant to the event, other than to push the progressive agenda forward.

Anyhow, I’m curious today why BYU did not or would not allow Charlie Kirk to come on campus and do a debate? Was it too “controversial”? for someone who has a different perspective, albeit one that aligns more with church ideals, to come on campus and debate the direction society in general is moving? Not even the gay or not gay topic (which I happen to think is being twisted and manipulated politically) which seems to be something at this point (6 years later) that is not even relevant.

The issues are moving quickly as our society descends into a place that many of us didn’t think was possible a few decades ago. I keep hearing things that make me wonder what is happening at BYU currently? Six years ago it wasn’t a place I was familiar or comfortable with and that concerned me then. I’m hopeful that we can practice what we preach by being tolerant and steadfast at the same time and that others will allow us to continue to do so.

2

The fact that BYU has a diversity, equity, and belonging committee, or office, or whatever is very troubling. This is just DEI with the last word changed. That should not have any place at BYU. It is not needed and the whole idea is Marxist. Equity, as you know, is guaranteed equal outcomes. It has nothing to do with the idea that all men are created equal as so eloquently stated in the Declaration of Independence by Jefferson.

On occasion I will watch YouTube videos produced by a guy who comments on current woke happenings on the BYU campus. On one program he interviewed a young woman who said she was in a home ec class with over a hundred other young women and the female professor said Jesus was non-binary. This is totally contrary to doctrine and the whole non- binary thing is nonsense anyway. If I had any authority at the university I would have fired her. This intellectual rubbish has no place at BYU. In my opinion it borders on blasphemy in addition to the total joke of an idea that anything connected to the trans movement is. I have heard about other things happening at BYU, but that was the most egregious, and frankly shocking one I have heard about. How do people like that even get hired at BYU? Why was that even brought up in a home ec class?

Has BYU dumped standards for hair? From what I am seeing with the athletes it would appear that way. This seems to be a thing that has changed in recent years. Maybe the standards have been redefined. I remember watching BYU play San Diego State in 1979 in the last game of the season to go undefeated and win the WAC and they were on national TV, not just regional TV. There was no cable then and very few games on national TV. They won big, but one thing I remember is a friend of mine saying how clean cut the BYU players were and how SDSU looked like gang members. Maybe the hair and dress standards grated on some people, but it did set BYU apart and for most people it set them apart in a positive way and projected a positive image. This is a fairly minor area, but these kind of trends often indicate a larger issue.

I could go on and on, but will give it a rest. My response doesn’t really answer your question as to why the changes. I do think they reflect a larger shift in the general culture. There was a time when BYU had its own unique culture, and they largely still do, but there was a time when BYU didn’t care that much about cultural shifts.

3

I share these same concerns — in spades. I’ve commented a few times about this.

Elder Clark Gilbert (commisioner of education for the Church) has made many statements over the last year that indicate that he and the Church are trying to fix this. It’s sad that it ever got to that point, but I’m glad they are trying to reverse the trend. There have been some faculty firings and the momentum has shifted. Faculty that do wild woke things get exposed immediately because of the internet.

I think the trend is reversing, but for some young adults, the damage is already done. I know five young adults who have left the Church or gone inactive because of the direct influence of activist BYU faculty. The Brethren are aware of this, and are trying to ensure that this doesn’t happen.

1 Like
4

Regarding hair, etc., BYU students look like other college students now. A lot of people have rejoiced that the Church doesn’t do “checklists” of standards any more, but we are seeing the results of that. In dress and modesty, tattoos, piercings, beards, Sabbath observance, tithing, swearing, chastity, and many more areas, young adults and youth simply mirror their peers, and this is creeping up into older adults, too (their parents). BYU reflects this. The Church used to present a stark visual contrast to the world, and it is increasingly indistinguishable from the world.

5

For what it’s worth, Elder Peter Johnson (who I think is likely to be one of the next apostles) told a member of our ward, when he was a BYU professor, that he wouldn’t encourage anyone’s kids to go to BYU. He was in our bishopric before leaving to be a BYU professor, and then he was later called to be a Seventy. He wasn’t happy with the culture that tends to lead kids away from the Church (and there is a correlation, in my experience, with drifting leftward politically and testimony and commitment. I think the two are directly linked at BYU).

6

hmmmmmmmmm

1 Like
7

Trying and doing are not the same thing. The question is, are they doing it and quickly? They need a Trump type figure to get it done quickly and not worry about the wokers out there.

1 Like
8

It’s hard to respond because your reason for her not being accepted is “Leftist” reasons and not specific. If you could be more specific, we could respond. My daughter is leftist but attends regularly. She is accepted and doesn’t speak up all the time unless it has something to do with vaccines. Anyways, she’s a bio-chemist. She sees how we and others treat gays with respect as long as they adhere to our standards while in Church. And, how family members treat other gay family members as well. One decided to marry his boyfriend. The mother made him understand that she doesn’t approve of it and would not attend the wedding. But, she also has shown increased love in other ways towards him. Same with other family members as well. We don’t shun them and when their partners are with them, we don’t shun them either. I’ve been asked if I think they are born that way. I said, most aren’t but that doesn’t mean they should act on their impulses and not stay within the bounds the Lord has set. We have had a couple of members in our ward who have stated they are same-sex attracted but have married a person of the opposite sex and are happy with them and their children. There is someone of the opposite sex out there for everyone if they are open to it, gay or straight.

9

The problem is if you have standards they have to be clearly defined. When I was at BYU in the early and mid seventies we were told no sideburns below the earlobe, mustaches had be above the upper lip not advancing below where the upper and lower lips meet. Hair length had to be above the collar. Beards were prohibited. It was pretty clear what you could and couldn’t wear. The vast majority of students had no problem with it.

Professors did not teach things clearly at variance with scripture and the counsel of the living prophets and apostles.

1 Like
10

I would think the board of education and trustees of the University would have a heavy and major influence in what takes place at BYU but maybe it has gotten so big and all encompassing that they have lost that ability? I am not speaking evil here because that would be against everything I believe in so I’m just asking why these kinds of things aren’t kept in check?

11

Agreed that this is a real problem. Part of why Charlie got so much backlash was because the guilty taketh the truth to be hard. It cuts them to the core. I think BYU trying to be more inclusive is not accomplishing the ultimate goal of educating and helping build faith-filled successful adults.

The problem is if you cater to the woke mob and allow gay trans socialist leftist pro Hamas clubs and events all over campus you are quietly confusing people. And furthering Satan’s work IMO. And then we wonder why young adults are leaving the church at such a high rate.

12

congratulations on your daughter not having such a bad experience. well done on not shunning…that was not my daughters experience…
curious where your definition of leftism here goes…

13

The Church has removed all standards (demonized as “checklists”). The For the Strength of Youth update focuses on principles instead of standards, which on its face sounds good and like a higher law, but anyone who works with youth and young adults knows that when the sole question is “how do you think God feels about this?”, youth and young adults are going to answer “I think they’re cool with” a) coffee and tea drinks, b) tattoos, c) tons of piercings, d) immodest clothing (garments are shrinking in response to this, even for their parents. Tank top men’s tops!), e) swearing and crude language, f) me deciding tithing is whatever I want it to be, g) lax Sabbath day observance, church attendance, and church commitment, h) [fill in the blank. the list goes on and on]

Everything that was the Church has been set aside for the sole purpose of trying to ensure that no one feels guilty about anything. Garments keep changing to mirror modern fashion, home teaching was replaced by ministering — in my opinion, not for a higher law, but so that people don’t feel guilty about not doing it —, church was cut down to two hours, leaders increasingly don’t try to get youth to live the law of chastity, disciplinary councils have largely been eliminated, etc. Any time there is any discussion about doing better or improvement (always at the local level, never at the General Conference level — talks are very Protestant and only about Jesus. We don’t get called to repentance like we used to in priesthood session. In fact, when was the last priesthood session?), people scream to high heaven about judging, making people feel guilty, etc. So, we have church culture, church structure, etc. that leads to predictable results, and this bleeds over into Church schools. BYU-I has been more strict and clear on standards than BYU-P, but this is also shifting.

The real failure is parents and the family. Even with the Church softening on a lot of things to try and be more inclusive and not make people feel guilty, strong families can still teach and instill the “old” standards. But many parents are also neglecting their duties, with predictable results. They are following the unspoken orientation and lead of the top-down Church leadership in this.

14

BYU got caught not doing anything about the burgeoning gay culture over the last several years. A survey indicated that 20% of BYU students identify as “non-cisgender,” which is ludicrous on its face and really shows a desire to be “an ally” rather than large actual gay population. But that shows other issues (like how many kids want to be known as being non-straight). When an honor code office employee announced that gay dating behavior (i.e., hand-holding, kissing, etc.) wouldn’t be an honor code violation, BYU was on the nightly news, with gay kiss-ins in front of the Brigham Young statue in front of the Smoot building. Radio silence for two weeks, before the commissioner of Church education and a Seventy announced that gay dating behavior was still unacceptable because it cannot lead people to where they need to be. The two week silence was deafening. And then BYU did nothing for two years while people continued lighting the Y rainbow. When BYU finally announced they couldn’t do it any more, it continued happening. It was only ever going to stop with arrests for trespass and expulsions. But, you have to be willing to be bad cop and do that (with blowback and bad publicity). It was made a lot worse with the precedent of not doing anything about it or responding at first.

15

It’s clear the Church is shifting—from rigid, culturally enforced standards to a deeper focus on personal responsibility and spiritual self-reliance.

This isn’t a retreat from truth. It’s a return to doctrine. At the heart of this evolution is agency—the divine gift to choose. Church leaders continue to teach that real spiritual growth doesn’t come from blind obedience, but from making righteous choices and seeking personal revelation.

This shift calls us to move beyond external enforcement and embrace internal accountability. It’s not about lowering standards—it’s about raising disciples.

In the end, we won’t be judged by how well we conformed to cultural expectations. We’ll be judged by the choices we made, the truths we lived, and the light we followed.

We’ve seen what happens when religion becomes obsessed with rules and appearances. Is that really the path we want the Church to take?

So here’s the question: Do we believe our leaders are Prophets, Seers, and Revelators—or not? That’s the choice each of us must make.

16

This is an excellent summary of the rationale behind recent changes, Floyd. I agree with it in principle and in theory, but the results of completely deemphasizing standards are plain for everyone to see. It’s not like under the “old” way, people had no agency and had no idea about agency or doctrine. People still chose to use their agency, and always have. It’s not like suddenly youth and young adults “get it” with agency now, where they didn’t in the past. The problem is that waves of youth and young adults have grown up with the whole “guilt free” culture shift and no clear standards, and we have waves of young adults and youth who have willfully and knowingly made a lot of the “wrong” choices because of this overt deemphasis. It is now (or is getting to be) virtually impossible to distinguish between Mormons and non-Mormons in language, appearance, values, and choices.

It’s always been that way, though. My point is that many more are making poor choices, because we’ve gotten rid of our cultural expectations. The cultural expectations were helpful in helping people learn the why through experience.

I disagree that we were ever obsessed with rules and appearances. I think there were clear standards of behavior, and people knew when they were disobeying them, and they knew that they knew they were. Now, we have people like many of the missionaries in my son’s mission who are thrilled to go home and get tattoos, because “the Church doesn’t say we can’t any more.” They are taking the completely wrong lesson from all this.

I believe that the Brethren hold the keys of the priesthood through their ordinations and call, but I don’t believe that they are infallible or perfect. Doctrinally, we all agree on this, but functionally, most members act like we believe our leaders are infallible and cannot make any mistakes. That any program, decision, shift in direction, etc. must be God’s will, or it would not have happened. For people who insist that they don’t, I ask them for any examples of things that President Nelson has “gotten wrong,” or programs or changes that didn’t work out well. Crickets . . . no one wants to give any examples – until a president has been dead long enough, and then it’s okay to discuss or point things out – but only after they are safely dead. But, if we really believe that they aren’t remote-controlled, mind-controlled robots with their own thoughts, biases, and experiences, then it should also be okay to discuss things we think they are getting wrong (for whatever reason).

I personally believe that this “guilt free” focus and deemphasis on standards will be reversed later, and a retrenchment towards clear “what do Mormons do and not do?” standards will be reimplemented. But, we’re going to have a lot of youth and young adults wandering in the wilderness until then.

1 Like
17

If anything, I think the generations under clear standards understood agency better than today’s Hank Smith, “you are enough,” “toxic guilt” youth.

18

Clearly on the left of center. Like Left Tackle would go on the OL. Leftism today is very clear because middle of the road Democrats cannot exist in that party because they would be working with the Republican conservatives. The difference between good and evil in my opinion has gotten much easier to decern.

1 Like
19

Floyd, there is a difference between doctrine and administration. I do believe that the prophets and apostles are fallible. They are human beings asked to make administrative decisions without having to be told what to do every moment from the Lord. The Lord won’t let the Church fail. But, because it is lead by human beings, howbeit, prophets and apostles, we will still see some questionable decisions. We have seen many over the decades since 1820 when the heavens were again open. But, the DOCTRINE has not changed. The question is, are the decisions to be politically correct helping? Most of us are saying no. They are confusing the youth especially. The youth will be the leaders of the future if we get to the future.

I’ll also put this into the conversation. In our Ward, the Ward Missionary leader came to me (Sunday School President) and requested a separate Gospel Essentials Class for investigators, newly returning members and those that need just the basics. So, I presented it to Ward Council. They were in favor of it BUT, the class had to use the Come Follow Me manual. Good grief! The reason for the request for the class was these people need just the basics and gain testimonies of the basics of the Gospel and Church. Well, we did order some Gospel Principle manuals and the teacher is using it with a little Come Follow Me. But, he’s getting frowned upon for not using mainly Come Follow Me. Why? The Stake President saying it’s what the Brethren want. So, we continue to lose new members and investigators. Frustrating.

20

It’s really hard to be the beacon on the hill if the light is out or dimmed. That is what is happening. It’s begun to be harder and harder to see the path to the tree of life for many of the youth and more and more adults, including teachers and BYU. It’s harder and harder for youth to gain strong testimonies in which we have been told that in the Last Days, our own testimonies may be all we have to go on.

Agreed. When I joined the Church in 1977, the standards were clear. At BYU, the rumor was that 50% of the dance department were homosexuals. But, you never saw anyone act out. The standards were clear and set. So, we were inclusive back then. But, they knew their place and behaved. And, no one went out of their way to make them feel outcasts from the university and Wards.