BYU vs. San Diego.... No idea what to expect

Basketball In Game
41

I think if Steve Cleveland was coaching this group of talent they would be performing at a much higher level. I believe they would be competing for a wcc title. They have shown what they are capable of in some of the games they have played and it is the lack of player development and increasing team chemistry that kils them.

I like what Cluasewitz had to say. I think it was very insightful and pretty accurate.

In my opinion it is really a shame to waste this much talent and potential when the opportunity is there. Some of the best players are leaving the team or sitting on the bench. Then there are the guys who are being run into the ground, wearing down and losing their effectiveness.

It’s a bummer.

42

Was Bryant’s poor shooting Saturday because he was out of rhythm and hesitant? I don’t think so. I see other teams shoot without rhythm and confidence and the ball goes in. That 40 footer is an example.
Nice try though :slight_smile:

43

Of course not. But I specifically said: [quote=“Clausewitz, post:39, topic:7875”]
Nixon, dastrup, yo, even seljaas are hesitating
[/quote]

I didn’t mention Bryant.

I don’t know him beyond his record. We do have a talent development problem. This league could be ours. We could at least recruit and play at the level of gonzaga. [quote=“JCoug, post:41, topic:7875”]
In my opinion it is really a shame to waste this much talent and potential when the opportunity is there. Some of the best players are leaving the team or sitting on the bench. Then there are the guys who are being run into the ground, wearing down and losing their effectiveness.
[/quote]

Completely agree. I keep trying to pinpoint the problem and it comes down to a reliance on hero ball. Hear me out. It’s all in the minutes. If you play Bryant and Yo to much and burn them out too early, you’re also penalized by preventing the development of other players. Whenever I’m training someone, the number one goal is to get ‘reality reps.’ To do the real thing. Practice is great, but you have to actually do it. And you need those minutes throughout the entire season. It’ll probably mean we lose 1 game early on to a good team. But it could also mean we are more consistent down the stretch, hopefully preventing losses to bottom dwellers.

That’s not the only benefit. When the ball moves on offense and everyone feels like they’re greenlit to shoot, they get confidence and feel stronger. They cut faster, they pass quickly and their shots are better. More importantly, When everyone is involved on the offense, they all play much better on the defensive end. Their commitment is stronger because of these silly psychological truths. If you get shots, you get a boost.

Hero ball vs team basketball. And the key is minutes. Protect your stars from burn out and injury and develop the bench. Especially if you have a key guy on the bench that could unlock the geometry of the court for you.

Rose is ultimately responsible, but the ideas are coming from Schroyer if I understand correctly. In any case, there is nothing inherently wrong with the defense or offense (except we need to add a few counters to defeat certain defenses, last game as a prime example). The problem comes from giving up on the system or not fully committing to it. Guys being lazy on defense or playing hero ball. Simple as that. The base scheme is good, just need to tweak it.

Agreed. Though I think we’re pretty limited on recruiting given the LDS connection etc. I think we can make more hay on improving development than recruiting. Both could be improved. [quote=“thawk, post:40, topic:7875”]
Look at the bigs that Rose has recruited as the head coach.
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Yup. Rose favors gaurds, especially shooters, but we need bigs who can score as well. I would quibble that we don’t necessarily need a dominant post presence, just to be able to score. And specifically, I want everyone to be a capable 3 point shooter. It’s just too important to spacing these days in basketball.

I don’t care if he’s a nice guy. I say keep him until you can show me who you think would do better at BYU without changing the current administrative policies. Besides, we wanted him to change and I see him changing right now. It may not happen instantly but I will take progress. I hated the uptempo run and gun BYU teams. Sure they were flashy and fun, but they were fundamentally flawed because we don’t have the athletes to run that. But there’s no reason we couldn’t run something similar to St. Marys. I say we let Rose keep working in that direction.

44

How does anyone respond to a book?
Let’s address your assumption that those players were hesitant. The offense is suppose to see the ball rotate a couple of times. So, when you see players have an opportunity to shoot and don’t, perhaps it’s not because they are hesitant. Perhaps they are just being team players instead of hero ball players. If they let the ball fly without rotating and miss then they should be yanked. Accountability, right? So, perhaps if a player really has a real shot without being defended should they be allowed to shoot early on? And who should be shooting outside shot from 3 point line early in the shot clock?

My feeling in this subject is Rose would pull a player out who gives up an easy non-contested shot early in the offense as he does when someone plays hero ball.

45

You and others keep saying the coaches aren’t developing players. Really? They don’t want their team to play better? I think they do everything they can. But, the bottom line is you have to try and win every game if you want to get to the Dance. And, that means if players come in and mess up early on in the season, coaches can’t keep them out there. We have a couple of guards that come in and shoot air balls. Or freeze when a ball is passed to them.

This whole debate is about Dastrup. I believe he’s really worked hard and has improved. But, when he gets on the court he hasn’t proved that he belongs out there more than Worthington and Nixon. And certainly not Childs. Without Childs in the floor we have always done worse.

After the last game, however, Worthington’s focus was less than par. This next game, I would start Nixon and bring Dastrup off the bench first. Hold Worthington accountable for bricking two easy layups.

46

It’s not hero ball if they take a few extra shots a game. We’ve seen nixon and others with wide open shots take a bead on the basket and pass up a good shot for nothing. If you’re going to pass up a good, it should be because someone else has a better shot. [quote=“grasshopper, post:44, topic:7875”]
If they let the ball fly without rotating and miss then they should be yanked. Accountability, right?
[/quote]

Depends on the system and what they’re told to do. But if they’re being told to not shoot when they have a good shot, then we have a problem. I don’t necessarily mind shooting early if it’s a high value shot, even if it does increase the poss/game.

Of course they do. I didn’t say anything about their intentions. I’m just saying you have to develop a team like ours by putting them on the floor and letting them get game reps early and often and thus protect your starters as well. We need consistency and the way we get it is by development. We can’t recruit like kentucky or even like Utah, so we need development and that means putting guys on the floor even when they mess up just for the simple fact of their potential and balancing minutes.

It’s also about protecting Bryant, Yo, and haws from burnout. And also developing Bergerson, cannon, and Nixon.

47

Mark Pope. It’s a not-too-well-guarded secret in the athletic department that Pope is the heir apparent. Everyone who knows him loves him. He is respected for his playing career and for his coaching track record. It’s said “he is the best LDS recruiter alive.” For heaven’s sake, look at the motley crew he convinced to come play at UVU this year!!! The man gets kids to follow him. Pope has turned UVU around in a hurry and made it a winner by doing one two things: getting BETTER PLAYERS and getting them to PLAY THE WAY HE WANTS THEM TO. BYU loves him and wants him. Holmoe doesn’t want to fire Rose because Rose is a great man who has done a good job with a solid track record and is liked and respected. But the risk we run is that if we wait too long, Pope will get a better job somewhere else for more money and we will never get him.

48

You can only put them in early and often as long as you win games. This team was unable to get a lot of double digit leads to be able to sub a lot. One loss could be the difference between the Dance and the NIT. Also, it does no good if they fail too much. Then it has a detrimental affect. Practice hard and develop in the off season.

49

This is a huge aspect of what I have been talking about. You are so right on here Tyler. I know I don’t need to tell you, but pay little to no attention to the grasshopper’s reply. He is jealous because you know what you are talking about and you said it well.

50

In case anybody is wondering, this is something you would expect to read from someone who coached high school basketball 30 years ago. So out of touch with what is going on today.

51

I don’t even know what Hopper is talking about, but I will riddle you this: Why doesn’t a guy who is 6’10" even TRY to just dunk the ball when he has position under the basket??? :slight_smile: Can he not go up strong off of two feet and throw it down???

52

Ok that’s interesting. I’m only slightly familiar with him. As in I couldn’t tell you his tendencies or expertise, I do remember his reputation. Anyone else have an opinion on him? How well does he have to do at UVU to be seen as worth the hire?

See you’re thinking in terms of year by year. My point is we can’t reload every year like Duke. In order for us to make a run in the tourney, we have to bank experience in off years. I would rather take an extra couple losses this year because as you always say, this is a young and inexperienced team, and next year is when we dance. That’s sad but it’s the reality we face unless someone can pull a few more 4 stars out of a hat consistently.

Besides, you look at it on a possession by possession basis. Win the possession. Don’t get down about losing the game, just stay in the moment and we’ll get better.

I’ve had hope at points during the season. But it wasn’t going to happen, so bring on the experience building.

You made some comments that clarified the problem in my eyes. We have to balance the scoring and move away from the hero ball. It doesn’t need to be perfectly balanced. But move that direction. Eli, yo, and TJ can score at a high rate, but they get tired. Anyways… Same thing you said.

53

Another very excellent point Tyler and we can only hope that hopper understands this. I would much rather have a few NIT’s in a row in exchange for the improvement of the team to the point where they can win a wcc title and possibly make a decent run at the ncaa tourney, maybe a win or even a sweet 16 appearance again? That isn’t happening under the current state of affairs. How many years has it been since Jimmer ran the show? He was a once in a generation player and that isn’t happening anytime soon, so let’s try the clausewitz way and see what happens.

54

This obviously concerns you but it is not what is going on. I have harped on this specific situation because it is, by far, the most glaring example of what is wrong with the team this season. There are others and clausewitz brought up some excellent examples of those.

Lastly, BYU is not improving relative to the other teams in the wcc. They are not as good now as they were earlier in the season. Oh well… no ncaa tournament, looks like a one and done nit year… again.

55

If I was coaching you and you bricked those layups I would bench you too :slight_smile:
Your comment was seriously off.

56

Bill Walton and Jabbar could not dunk. Yet they didn’t miss layups. How many years have I been railing on missing layups. Dunk or not, you can’t miss a layup the way Luke did. Not even touching the rim. With that said, he’s the most consistent defender at the 5. He’s been solid shooting too. He has worked the hardest and developed the hook shot. I’ve said that Luke’s job is to jam up the paint on defense. His job is to score 8-12 points a game. He’s been pretty good about this. But, against USD he didn’t come through. The rest of the team didn’t come through either. But, Jim’s credibility about what to do and who to play is all lost because it doesn’t matter because of his conspiracy theories. What’s the point?

57

I would think this is a good time for a conspiracy thought. I mean, isn’t this about the conspiracies and not coach Rose? Isn’t Rose just following the conspiracy script? Which is it? A conspiracy or incompetency?
Here’s one thing I would share with you. Every player should have to earn their time on the court. Should the better talented kid play ahead of those who work harder and produce more? I simply don’t see Dastrup as the best player currently between Worthington, Nixon, Childs and himself. Is Dastrup getting better? Yes. By next year, if he’s truly the best talent, he will start. But, he will also have Andrus to compete against. And he’s just as talented as Dastrup.

58

Kareem didn’t dunk? That’s funny considering in 1967 the NCAA BANNED dunking specifically in what was widely known as the “Lew Alcindor Rule.” I think they changed it back in 1975 or so.

59

Yes, they changes the rule while he was still playing. Much earlier than 1975. It may have been just his senior year but I’m old enough to remember he had to lay the ball up and it dunk. Walton couldn’t dunk his entire 4 years.

60

The ban for dunking was instituted for the 1967 - 1968 season in college after a year of watching Alcindor’s sophmore season.