No, I am not saying that President Oakes was bad, he simply allowed the coaches to deal with punishment of the offenses rather than the HC office.
Who am I to judge whether it was right or wrong? He had the mantel of authority for BYU at that time. So if it was right or wrong, he will find out in the end.
You do realize that Lavell is my cousin, right?
I am not demeaning him; I am using his exact words at how he coached. He oversaw the entire team but allowed his assistants to do their jobs without interference from him. “IF” he had concerns he brought them up to the coach and they discussed it, otherwise he let them run with the ball.
I have no idea what Sitaki allows and don’t allow, I just know what Lavell has told me in person about his coaching style.
I hate to dive into this honor code discussion–I hear THawk in my head yelling “walk away, don’t engage.” But if you read the HC, last sentence, it says " * Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code and Dress and Grooming Standards."
I’m a lawyer. Words matter to me. Nuance matters to me. “Encourage” is a far cry from “snitch,” and I don’t see any affirmative obligation in the entire HC to “turn people in.” Each of the 8 affirmative bullet point obligations is a duty to oneself and one’s own conduct. Nowhere does it say anything about turning people in, so if that happens, shame on the person blowing the whistle on somebody else.
Once again you start off wrong. He was being sustained for a stake calling at our stake conference. You obviously can’t read either or you wouldn’t have carried on with more Grasshopper Derangement Syndrome.
If we had someone like you on our dorm floor freshman year, half of them would have been called in, maybe expelled and you would probably gotten beat up weekly. And, btw, most straightened up, went on missions and are leaders in the Church.
But, your way is better because it’s your way.
Half of them would have been called in? What were they doing? The number of students turned down at BYU is large. You are saying there are kids that are sucking up space at BYU that shouldn’t be there? That are taking spots from kids who can live the gospel?
I’m all for repentance. Kids are making mistakes all the time. But, if they aren’t willing to straighten up then get rid of them and replace them with kids that should be there. There were students there when I went there that made dumb mistakes and some that made serious mistakes. If there is an HC then go by it. Others are waiting to get in and live by their commitments.
Depends what the rule that is broken. If you see someone breaking the law, you wouldn’t snitch? Like doing illegal drugs. What about adultery? What would you do when they are called to a church calling in their BYU ward or Stake?
All I know Tom, in the aftermath of the rape allegation and how the young lady was called into the HC for violating the HC that it was brought out that there was a lot of snitching going.
As I understand the aftermath of the HC review, one of the changes that was made is that there is a mandatory review process done before any HC discipline can be administered. From what was reported, that was not always the case.
I also know that under Bateman and Vice President Skousen, Athletes were more harshly treated than regular students. A player I know (an RM) talked about how the other players always felt that they were under the microscope, when other students doing the same things got caught the punishment was not the same.
I will leave it at that.
I had friends who went to BYU and told me that there were known HC “Snitches”. Who always was on the prowl for violations. To me, the term “Encourage” is to “help” people maintain thier good standing as to oppose of automatically running to the HC office.
So that is where I make the difference between “encouraging” and “snitching.”
Does that make sense?
100% Floyd. I think we are making the same point differentiating between encouraging and snitching/turning people in. And I’m close with one of the guys in the athletic department who is very involved in disciplinary matters and agree with you that the new review process is very helpful–especially when we are dealing with non members who have no history with the BYU culture and are at BYU mostly because a football coach convinced them to sign.
Yes I do know you’re Jewish. Learn history. Stasi was the East Germany secret police. Where snitching was rewarded. Communist East Germany, not Nazi Germany persecuting the Jews. So my statement was not ignorant and there is equivalency because the discussion topic was snitching. Once again, you don’t listen. It’s a skill that is actually helpful in life and it’s not too late to learn.
You’re so predictable - knew you would go to a “kick them out if they break a rule, there’s a waiting line.”
Missing, as usual, the point. The subject is about snitching. There’s a reason it’s also called “ratting out” and “squealing”. Not real flattering terms, but you would wear them as a medal. By your logic, if more students snitched on their fellow students for, well, pretty much any violation, then more “righteous” and deserving servants would get in. It does sound like old East Germany. Snitch and you get an advantage. Keep on judging Hopper, you’re very skilled at it.
All good points and rebuttals Floyd. But Hopper will hop around, avoiding most, if not all of your points and come up with other irrational responses that really don’t address the point of discussion.
It is kind of fun to watch this episode in human behavior of the lengths someone will go to defend the indefensible.
If I could I would. Especially if they were a danger. I’ve called the highway patrol on drunk drivers. If you see something wrong, don’t take it into your hands but call someone who is over the issue.
Hopper: " You knucklehead liberals who run to Hitler to defend your positions every time is classic."
Back to name calling I see. What are you, in junior high? Not sure what the run to Hitler reference is tied to. It’s like you read about every tenth word of a post - anyone’s post - and respond.
You’re kind of losing it. Kind of worried about it so is my last reply on this topic. I’ll try to be nicer.
You referenced Nazi Germany. Can’t remember what you wrote. By the way, I had family die in the holocaust. And you are worried about name calling. No one is going to jail or a Nazi camp if they are turned in for severely breaking the HC.