Fish/Jim Hawks/May 12
Some people, regardless of how much or how little education they have, and regardless of where they did or did not get their education, sometimes fail to see the point that another is making. Is this the problem of the messager, or is it the problem of the person not listening well enought to what the messager is conveying?
boy, a lot to chew on Jim…I doubt there will ever be a consensus on “Choosing to be or Genetically or Chemically Wired”. We would all agree that Choosing to be a Drug User or Porn Addict is Choice. But Choosing to be gay??? Come on, Man. Why would anyone choose to go through the hell of being gay? I will stop at that because arguing about Sexuality is endless and at the end of the day no one changes their mind.
The Church has been hemorrhaging families over this poorly contrived “Exclusion Policy” and had to do something about it. We lost two of our sons and their families, 4 cousins and their entire families when that policy came out. That is just in my immediate family. They are not coming back. In order to survive, the church had to quietly make changes. We are still not there but I like that the leadership are quietly dismantling the policy.
Anyway, have a great summer and can’t wait to watch a BYU game this fall. BYU is going to surprise a lot of people.
I believe there is a statement by a former Prophet in these latter days saying there would be a great purge and divide. I’d have to go back into my notes from BYU but I’m sure this is true. It would not surprise me that this is the issue that will purge those who doubt the scriptures and the prophets. This will purge those who claim a testimony but deny Christ.
I don’t have a problem with trying to help both heterosexuals and homosexuals who commit sexual sins before sever discipline such as excommunication. But, sex between a man and a woman is only good and not evil or vile when done by married man and woman. As stated clearly doctrinally in Romans Chapter 1.
I believe there still are plenty of people in the world seeking a Church that teaches what the Proclamation of the true family is to replace those who fall away in support of vile affections. Our Prophets will do what the Lord wants for His Church. Not what women and men dressed up in vagina costumes and parade around with other vile persons. He will not succumb to politicians either. Not for money. If it’s time for His Second Coming then it’s time. Are we prepared or will He come as a thief in the night? Who is on the Lord side who?
You might tone down your adjectives and let your example preclude your mouth and in the meantime treat people as they are-children of God, whom he loves-even liberal politicians and gay folk. Let God and those called to be judges do the judging or you might be one of those that thought their election into the kingdom was a sure thing but found themselves on the outside looking in😇
And, you too supported what I said. Thank you… 
No problem🥴
a-men to that brother, It is nice to read that I am not alone with this thinking.
I personally know group of about 18 in Provo, that feel this way also.
I am afraid that we may be losing some of these thinkers also.
A group of 18 of what?
How do you know they are not coming back? What about those who have acknowledged same sex attraction and chose to stay? Are they wrong or in error for that choice? After all, it is a choice whether to stay active in the church or not, right?
I believe that we all have proclivity - “a tendency to choose or do something regularly; an inclination or predisposition toward a particular thing.” How we handle that proclivity, temptation, tendency, desire… etc. you can call it what you want, is part of the learning and growth process we go through in life.
Heavenly Fathers great plan of happiness for us involves "bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is His work and glory. I believe it is a long process and perhaps it will take what seems like an eternity to see it to fruition. I do believe that we can make progress in that regard during this lifetime. I do believe we have a Heavenly Mother. I believe husband and wife, male and female, is an integral part of the process of gaining exaltation and inheriting the celestial kingdom.
Having stated my beliefs and opinions on the matter, I hope with everything I know and believe that your children/family decide to come back at some point during their time here on earth. If not, then I hope they do in the next life. I think a lot of the choices we make in this life are heavily influenced by many people/things/circumstances that will not affect us in the same way in the next life. There are lots of people who have been sealed in eternal families that aren’t very happy in this life, there are lots that are. I believe the Family Proclamation to be the most current revelation we have when it comes to discussions about families and relationships. Society would be well served to do their best to follow it but I don’t see that happening much.
Lastly, I don’t know a lot about the “exclusion policy” but I don’t believe anyone should be “excluded” from following the Savior, his teachings/commandments or the teachings/commandments of His modern day prophets and apostles. It is possible so why don’t we continue trying and do our best. Heavenly Father knows where the heart of each one of us is… in fact He knows it all.
A group of 18 what? What are they feeling/doing in Provo? Are those 18 the “thinkers” you are afraid of losing? If they think or believe things that are contrary to what the prophets and apostles teach then maybe they should think again.
Lastly, what makes you think you are “alone” in whatever it is that you are thinking? Why the vague assumptions and discord?
Slam dunk! Spot on! And, the sinners usually exclude themselves and are looking for something to justify their desire to leave the path toward the tree of life. Justifying same sex attraction is the new reason used by those who leave.
I asked the same thing. A group 18 what?
You could craft your comments in such a way as to show a bit more empathy. I think it would help people understand the point you are trying to make a lot easier. It is certainly a difficult discussion but one worth having.
Hi Yes, it is a difficult discussion when we allow our emotions to take over and the spirit of truth leaves. As a Church, we have become more patient with those heterosexuals living together outside the bound of marriage. But, many times, we are able to work and reason with them to get married and back on track. With same-sex couples and transgenders there are two camps. They are born that way or they have a reprobate mind and mentally ill. Either way is almost impossible to overcome and get back on track. Their only path to take is stay celibate the rest of their lives.
The Bible says they have reprobate minds and I’ll take God’s words over unproven science. Even if science proving they are born that way, it’s still a commandment to stay celibate.
So, how do we handle it? I think they can attend whether or not they are excommunicated or not as long as they don’t show inappropriate affections and don’t try to sway members away from following the Prophet and the Written Word. A cousin of my wife is gay and he and his companion attended our Ward several times. His companion was not a member but he was. They kept the protocol and both said they liked the Church. But, they also knew the commandment too and I don’t think it’s appropriate to not be honest about the commandment against homosexual acts. There is no reason to lie or not to be clear and let people know what it takes to move forward to Eternal Life. I think that is showing greater love than lying to them or having a spiritual meltdown over it because of the Lord’s commandment the Lord has set.
Was I too harsh Obe Juan Canopy 
Use Context clues. “I personally know a group of about 18 in Provo, that feel this way also”.
“I am afraid that we may be losing some of these thinkers also”.
You mean free thinkers? The simple truth is they don’t have a testimony. They are lead by the precepts of men mingled with scripture.
The ultimate goal is to do what our Father in Heaven wants and that’s to bring to past the immortality and ETERNAL LIFE of his children. Satan wants to stop as many of us from that. If we allow sin to go unpunished then more and more will be lead away into the mist of darkness and that great and spacious building. The olive tree becomes more and more corrupt and dead. We try to help them gain a testimony but if they are hell-bent to take others with them, they have to be cut off or more will end up in apostasy. It’s hard and it is sad. I’m sure Father in Heaven weeps along with you. We have our chance and they have had theirs. Time for the 18 to choose to follow the Lord or Satan. Get in there and warn them instead of pandering to their carnal desires.
I’m sure Jim will say I’m being to blunt. But, I’m simply being truthful. How many times in the Book of Mormon did people step up and warn others of pride and its consequences?
Awe yes grasshopper,
“it is better for one man to perish than to have a whole nation dwendle in disbelief”
It is! Now you’re understanding:-)
I did use context clues but I wasn’t totally comfortable with making assumptions using those clues. I was hoping you would clarify or be more specific regarding what you were talking about but it doesn’t look like you are going to be.
I am not too troubled if the church loses “free thinkers” who oppose what the brethren and Heavenly Father have laid out as the great plan of happiness for His children. There are lots of people who think they have found happiness in this life but I am confident they will have to change their ways if they want to gain eternal happiness.
Are my assumptions correct?
Absolutely! Free thinkers are often times agnostic and aren’t those with testimonies of God and his Church. They will pull more people away. Sometimes we have to let people go and exercise their free agency. True ministers will be available if their hearts are changed.